The Rumplestiltskin Law

[Barracker]

There is a consultation happening regarding surrogacy.

Here is a link to the Law Commission on the subject.

It's key aim is horrifying.
To sever all rights of a woman over the child she has created with her body, the moment she gives birth to it. Presumably, to sever her rights before she gives birth, in fact. To contractually grant someone else ownership of her body and the child within it.

"Creating a new surrogacy pathway that will allow, in many cases, the intended parents to be the legal parents of the child from the moment of birth."

I'm calling it what it is. The Rumplestiltskin Clause.

I'm taking your child, and there's nothing you can do about it. A deal is a deal. Your body is mine. Your human rights were forfeit when you signed the contract.

It's the stuff of nightmarish fairytales.
Rumplestiltskin was not the good guy.

#TheRumplestiltskinLaw

Yes it's a very long consultation. I think I have to devote at least a weekend to it.
I'm at work so can't click to book a place until later but hopefully there will be space.

That’s good that they have public consultation events in Manchester, Exeter, Brighton, Cardiff and Birmingham.
But seems a bit odd that they don’t have any Scottish events or London events listed given that they are covering England, Wales and Scotland with these proposals.

Tens of thousands protest in Israel because gay men don't have the right to surrogacy. I just cannot get over how much women are hated and it saddens me

slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/tens-of-thousands-protest-in-israel-over-denial-of-surrogacy-rights-for-gay-men.html

I just can't imagine growing up and finding that my "parents" exploited an impoverished woman from abroad to buy me. Remember the earthquake in Nepal, when Israel sent a chartered flight to evacuate a group of surrogate babies leaving the mothers to their fate. How could one have any respect for people who had treated one's mother like that?

Horrible yes, but I wouldn't consider the woman in Nepal my "mother".

Older parents are seen by the state as being able to provide more stability to a baby than the actual birth mother , but these babies are coming from down and out women who can't get rid of their abusive boyfriends ( because they're financially dependent), or who might be prostituting themselves, or who simply can't afford a place to live.

I'm sure for some that's the case, in others they are just shitty mums who don't deserve their kids.

Before expecting a mother to leave her abusive partner, ask her "have you got a place to go?" " Can you afford the rent alone ?" "Can you afford childcare?" "Does your income cover the expenses you need to raise a child?" The answer will be no. So they stay.

Nah. Family for my mum a house through the council after she went into a refuge. They helped her financially, got her moved in, he was in prison. She invited him back, nothing to do with finances. I don't think you are correct at all.

Regarding human rights , it's a human right for a single man to buy a baby from a woman. So he has more money than women because of his class, and then he uses that money to buy a baby off a woman who doesn't have much money because if her class

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=rightsinfo.org/a-human-rights-legal-challenge-means-the-law-has-changed-to-allow-single-parents-to-have-a-child-through-surrogacy" target="_blank">https://rightsinfo.org/a-human-rights-legal-challenge-means-the-law-has-changed-to-allow-single-parents-to-have-a-child-through-surrogacy/

heterosexual couples who expect a baby to be provided for them if they're passed 30 and can't conceive

Better adoption than abused kids being left in foster care forever though ?

twitter.com/brandonambro/status/1149727620038369281?s=21

Car crash thread on this topic from this woke bro dude, who’s trying to find a “carrier” so that he and his husband can become parents. He rightly got his arse handed to him for his dehumanising language, but has doubled down, including telling Karen Ingala Smith “Not sure how you consider yourself to be a feminist, but you should start with taking seriously women’s experiences.”

He’s also studying for a PhD in theological ethics from a Catholic institution

Posted on the R4 Surrogacy programme thread as well:

Just to let you know I had a reply from the law commission on the surrogacy consultation and there will be another London event (one was held on 12th July, did anyone go or even hear about this?) in mid-Sept - keep an eye out.

Agile lass thanks for posting and the video states interesting facts (of what are currently known) that surrogate births are high risk pregnancies to the mothers health, impact on the child is dismissed. They make the point to remove the young of any animal, (citing if one where to buy a puppy or kitten) that it is cruel and a wait in these cases of 6-8 weeks is lawful.
Think the money should be taken out of the equation, it's so wrong on so many levels.
Babies are not for sale.

Horrible yes, but I wouldn't consider the woman in Nepal my "mother".

Most if not all of the couples involved in this case were gay men.

Every human being that has ever existed has had a mother. If 'the woman in Nepal' - ie the woman who created that child from her own body and then used that body to give birth to it - is not that child's mother, then who is?

SALe of babies seems so wrong. I used to find that tv programme long lost families fascinating. The number of adopted adults who really needed to understand why their mother gave them up. Usually happy ending, child discovers mother loved them but was 16 and bullied into it for example.
Imagine being the adult who discovers they were sold as a baby

Imagine being the adult who discovers they were sold as a baby

Not only that but that the "parents" who bought you exploited the impoverished woman who gave birth to you and left her to take her chances after the earthquake.

Bump

The main issues that stand out to me are.
1 Law commission being all male (well off?) with no female representation whatsoever. Important to have more diversity of opinion .

1. The public consultation document is not written for the public or lay opinion.

3 Interested if would be the NHS picking up the tab for this, hence the interest of other nations as this would make surrogacy cheaper by potentially alleviating IP from overseas of the costs they should make for the surrogate.

1. Protections for surrogates especially women with LD, young women or those who may be living in poverty.
2. Earlier thread on the Rumpelstiltskin law had with American experts one said that genetic material, i.e an egg that doesn't belong to the birth mother has a greater chance of being a high risk pregnancy.

This shouidl be a human rights issue and rights of the child.

I just also think as a mother of three that not to include women who have had a child as stakeholders is disturbing.

Good points twinklystar23

Point 3 is a real concern to me, that UK should become a surrogacy destination with international buyers taking advantage of our NHS to save themselves medical costs.
There are questions in the consultation re International arrangements and I will be asking for international surrogacy arrangements to be banned outright.

Link to the thread I started about the consultation.

I've read all 118 questions and am beginning to formulate answers to the ones I am most concerned about and will be gradually posting my answers, so hopefully others will also reply to the consultation.

Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultation

FannyCann Yes I thought that I can really see this happening, re; the NHS, why should the british taxpayer be funding any of this. IP should be expected to pay for the surrogates health to the end of her life. I ended up with a LTC as a result of pregnancy, though this didn't onset immediately following birth. As point 5 I made, that we could be looking at increased costs, if the genetic material does "not belong" to the birth mother.. Think you are doing a good job on completing the consultation, someone upthread was a lawyer who was finding the wording obstructive (think that was said!)
Which brings me to my next point. Should we not be raising this with MP'S? that this is not designed as a public consultation, it appears to be written for those "with experience of surrogacy" which appears to favour individuals and organisations who will directly benefit from this.

twinklystar23 I think you’re right we should absolutely be raising this with our MPs.

I’ve just posted on another thread that this consultation breaches the code of conduct set out by the government on how consultations should be carried out.

They haven’t made it accessible. They didn’t raise awareness of it. They also shouldn’t have had it running over the summer holidays when lots of people are unable to find time to do it. Also, it is unnecessarily complicated.

Here’s the thread which has more details:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

Here’s the contact details of who to complain to:

Better Regulation Executive
Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 1 Victoria Street
London
SW1H 0ET
Telephone: 020 7215 0352 E-mail: [email protected]

*Twinklystar23
*
5. Earlier thread on the Rumpelstiltskin law had with American experts one said that genetic material, i.e an egg that doesn't belong to the birth mother has a greater chance of being a high risk pregnancy.

I've been thinking about this - especially with respect to western people commissioning impoverished women from the Asian subcontinent to carry their babies for them. Asians tend to be of smaller stature than many western people. I would love to know if these mothers have a higher rate of caesarean or forceps deliveries or other complications of a mismatch between the size/stature of the mother and the baby. I don't think any horse breeder would use a Shetland pony to gestate a shire horse.
I realise in heterosexual couples there may be a mismatch of size between mother and father but at least the mother's genes may give some protection.
I don't suppose it's something anyone has researched - for the heterosexual couple of mismatched size it wouldn't be particularly helpful information.
For impoverished mothers from Asia, who cares? I very much doubt anyone is keeping records relating to the maternal health and birth outcomes for these women so long as the baby was delivered in a fit state to satisfy the clients.

@OhHolyJesus

Thanks Fanny I've emailed about a consultation event in London as I see that's missing off the list.*

Any news about new dates? I'd like to get to another event if I can, seeing as I missed the first half of the one I attended. Sadly got to work the day of the Birmingham one so that's a miss.

Interesting Nordic Model Now piece about this. Looks like they will be working to create a crib sheet to help women respond. Thank you to those brilliant women!

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/15/the-law-commissions-surrogacy-consultation-how-to-bamboozle-through-a-dangerous-new-law/

Thanks for posting this. It's a great response. I'm still working my way through my own answers to the questions which obviously aren't anywhere near as well thought out as this.

@OhHolyJesus

I've just spotted the date for another consultation event in London - offices of Mishcon de Reya

I really want to go to another of these events, having missed most of the one I attended.
I may see if I can take the day off work and attend.

19th September