Do you ever wonder...

[Whyrmengreattiltheygottabgreat]

...if some of the Uber-Woke secretly do question some of the current rhetoric, but have painted themselves so far into the corner that it’s almost impossible to extricate themselves.

I know a few people who are involved in an extremely “Woke” organisation. If anybody involved in this organisation were to express any GC belief, they would certainly lose their jobs, a large portion of their social circle, possibly even relationships.

There’s a bit of me that feels quite sorry for people like this. If they were to question any part of this, they would lose so much. No wonder the same arguments get repeated over and over.

yep, know people in exactly this situation.

I'm sure this is the case
we maybe need to think of some face saving options for these people
'ah, I see now, of course THAT makes all the difference, why didn't you say so before"
not sure what new info would be required though

or if some of the people who are gender critical think maybe they have this wrong and they could be hurting people, I mean it's a thought int it.

"it's far easier to fool someone, than to persuade them that they have been fooled"

As someone famous once said. Can be applied to all kinds of things OPs post included.

Mind you, I'm probably as guilty of this as anyone....

Yeah, Bespin, cos the women here never talk about checking their consciences about things and then see some delightful Anti Woman Activist underline the misogyny and are resolved they are on the right track.

Btw, Bespin, any more laughs to be had in women being pushed out of their own sports? It really amused you the other day.

Bespin no doubt somewhere that is true. However I often feel I have to hide GC views for fear of being shunned, whereas the people I’m thinking of have no issue sharing memes about their endless crusade against T**FS.

I can imagine some people deliberately avoid any new info, for fear of having a “Are we the baddies?” moment?

Always worth self reflecting.
Am I arguing to violate the privacy, safety and dignity of others? Nope
Am I demanding that children's safety is compromised? Nope
Am I grooming children online into believing that self harming via breast binding, drugs and surgery is the solution to unhappiness with their bodies? Nope
Am I trying to separate children from their parents and persuade them to ally with random strangers offering 'rainbow glitter' and false friendship? Nope
Am I enabling predators / those who wish harm to children and women by insisting on 'acceptance without exception' for everyone - no matter how dangerous they are? Nope.

Reflection over for today....

I wonder what Bespin's answers to those questions would be, truth.

I hide my gc status. Because I don't feel it is something I am allowed a public opinion on.

I am unclear what is actually considered legally transphobia and what is labelled transphobia by those with a different opinion to me.

I believe in equality for all. Not equality for a few at the expense of others.

Sorry Truth, I agree with you, if that’s not clear.
I guess that’s what I meant. Some of the problems with the current ideology just seem so obvious that I find it difficult to imagine that, with even a little self reflection, you wouldn’t see them.

Well you see stuff comes both ways none of it is right and it is where we have ended up because people want this to be a fight on both sides and the number of people who think maybe we are going to far is few on both sides.

floral when people on here stop finding things amusing that I don't find funny then they can tell me that I can not find situations funnyok, and I don't find it funny. I find your responces to it funny as after days of saying dominating sports someone does not do that but still it's not right so that I find funny becuase life as a way of showimg the floors In your logic have a lovely evening.

You fancy taking a deep breath and explaining that again, Bespin?

I'm sure you wince at anything approaching mockery of your beliefs. Anyone would.

But if you are male, you aren't female, and that's just fact. My logic has neither flaws nor floors.

Female people did kind of get the short straw when it comes to size, strength, pregnancy and ability to be taken as Default Human Beings. So female people, whatever anyone chooses to call them, need more consideration than they often get. Maybe you do too, but that would be for other reasons.

or if some of the people who are gender critical think maybe they have this wrong and they could be hurting people, I mean it's a thought int it

You think women who want other women and girls to be safe is wrong? I mean we always knew that is the case but blody hell.

Bespin: or if some of the people who are gender critical think maybe they have this wrong and they could be hurting people, I mean it's a thought int it

You think women who want other women and girls to be safe is wrong? I mean we always knew that is the case but bloody hell.

^This

Gender critical people want caution before children are given medication/affirmed that they're in 'the wrong body'/affirmed that they should be binding their breasts, tucking their penis, given the message that this is totally the way to go if they have issues with their body: harming people?

Gender critical people want to ensure that homosexual people aren't criticised for their same-sex orientation and gaslighted into believing that their orientation is wrong and they should be attracted to people's stereotypical behaviour that's associated with specific sexes, rather than their attraction to sexed-bodies: harming people?

Gender critical people want to ensure that protections in law built and based on sex-based risks and considerations aren't lost: harming people?

Gender critical people want to ensure that the word 'woman' isn't dissolved into a mish-mash of 'feelings/whatever you want it to mean, you do you' for a lot of the reasons above: harming people?

Some people, mainly men, want to demand access to single-sex spaces, the definition of woman, the destruction of sex-based rights: which pepole are maily being 'harmed' in the scenario here?

Bespin, mate you laughed at women being pushed out of their own sports by men. You thought it was a right laugh. You love dipping in here and flinging your snide little comments but I bet you won't have the courage to answer those question truth posted up there. Because the answers are revealing aren't they, and as the OP says, to face up to the moral bankruptcy of your worldview is very difficult to face.

Oh, and truth's fantastic questions!

floors In your logic

Must. Not. Laugh. Must. Rise. Above.

(Even if others do find the destruction of women's sports funny, which is about as low as it gets.)

FloralBunting

happy to give a quick answer. it's no to all of them. there see answered it was not hard or challenging.

Multistorey logic?

while I have popped in you know what I find the most amusing thing on here that some of the posters on here who are gender critical and say there woman are sometimes clearly not and I think we all know this or at least suspect but no one ever says because they see supporting your view. every time I come in here I smile at that one inconsistent fact that you all maintain. it is Truely the one thing that I really do lol at

Sure Bespin. Sure. Your posting history on FWR tells a very different story, but I'll leave you to your own conscience squashing.

nd say there woman are sometimes clearly not

Name and shame

Or it didnt happen

I may have misread, cos to be honest (and i know my posts aren’t the clearest) not much of that post makes sense

I think your thread has struck a nerve, OP.

I reflect on my position constantly. Honestly, I question it almost every day. I ask myself again and again "could this be what they mean by gender identity?", "is this what they're trying to describe when they say they feel like a woman?" I've read blogs and articles by trans people, watched videos, talked to my trans friends, debated online, shadowed at a clinic for people transitioning, spoken to psychiatrists - the list goes on. I've really really really tried to get my head around it but I just can't. It doesn't make sense. None of the words or phrases mean anything that can be communicated. It's all just experiential, and I don't experience it. At this point, for all the definitions of "gender identity" I've seen presented, I can honestly say that I don't have one. Maybe, for all the joking, I really am agender. But then again I also have no sense of smell and it's not difficult at all for me to understand that other people do and to imagine what that might be like. I don't experience it personally, but it has a very clear and consistent manifestation in the world and lots of ways it can be tested for. So I think even if I lacked the thing, if it was something everyone else had then I would be able to understand it at least in theory. Who knows, maybe someday someone will define it in a way that'll make me think "yes! I do experience that and it is in line with my biological sex" and then I will gladly adopt the label cis and give the idea that "gender identity" is a meaningful way of organising society some serious thought. Until then, I don't know what trans people are talking about. And neither does anyone else I've asked. No non trans person I have ever spoken to offline knows what it means to identify as something that they obviously just are. In no other area of life would we be trying to write something that no one has even a basically working definition for into law. So, like, maybe lets not...

Also, Bespin, I know it's not "in the spirit" to point out SPAG but seriously, your posts are unintelligible. I know it's been pointed out to you before and I'm sorry to be rude but if you want to have an actual dialogue here you're going to need to use punctuation. It's just too hard trying to decipher what you're saying atm.

no Im just here for the snide remarks me lol. I genuinely stopped caring about here a few months ago because most of the people who actually wanted to debate stopped posting and not everyone who disagreed was set upon as soon as they offered a view now its so heavily policed that its rare you get other points of view that are not just dismissed out of hand.