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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender neutral loos - a personal experience

72 replies

Ratonastick · 05/06/2019 08:55

Yesterday I was in a poncy coffee shop and popped to the loo. There were two self contained loos down in the basement, one Gent’s and one gender neutral. I had to wait until a chap came out of the GN one. I went in but before I could lock the door, he burst back in saying that he had left his phone.

It was fucking terrifying, he literally flung the door open without knocking or anything. I was in a 10ft square room in an enclosed basement with a ranty stranger. He was about a foot taller than me and clearly pissed off that he had lost his phone and saw my presence as something that stopped him finding it. He almost (but not quite) manhandled me out of his way. I went into a sort of flight mode, I was terrified. I legged it out of the loo and waited at the bottom of the stairs (where I could run if I needed to) until he came out. He came out looking really pissed off and grumbled at me that he had lost it and stomped off.

I went into the loo, very carefully locked it and double checked and triple checked the lock so I could pee (I was desperate so couldn’t wait to go anywhere else, my pelvic floor doesn’t have the staying power). By the time I left he had gone.

So that is it, right there: The problem of men in women’s space. He would tell that story very differently. He lost his phone and couldn’t find it and had to go back to the loo to look for it. Total entitlement that he could walk back into a private space. Absolutely no fucking clue that he scared the living shit out of a woman in a space where she would and should expect to be safe. We need sex segregated bogs, it’s that simple.

And it was Notes in St Martins Lane should you wish to avoid it. The Cafe in the Crypt is nicer anyway.

OP posts:
Michelleoftheresistance · 05/06/2019 09:03

That must have been utterly terrifying! Flowers

SophoclesTheFox · 05/06/2019 09:04

That’s horrible, rat, you must have been terrified Sad

I don’t see why in that situation, the cafe couldn’t go for the option of having a women’s and gender neutral. Why is that option never on the table? I hate this assumption that it’s a,ways women’s spaces that are up for debate and erosion.

mylittlenugget · 05/06/2019 09:05

That's awful! I can't imagine how scared you must have been, if that had happened to me I'd have peed on the floor.
I wonder why they have separate loos for the men but no separate loo for women though, that seems very strange.

RiddleyW · 05/06/2019 09:08

One gents and one mixed is ridiculous - why would they do that? I’m sorry you got a fright that sounds crap.

Ratonastick · 05/06/2019 09:12

mylittlenugget. My guess is that they used to have men’s and women’s and the men’s has a urinal so can’t be changed (I didn’t check!). Woke points for gender neutral bogs, but no proper consideration of provision. They just changed one of the signs on the doors.

OP posts:
Sunkisses · 05/06/2019 09:13

I hate mixed sex toilets. My experience is that they stink, and are usually drenched - floor and seat - in male urine. Unflushed. Door handle crawling with germs as men often don't wash their hands. Gross. I am sorry you had that terrifying experience. Complain to them. Only if women speak up will things change

DoodleLab · 05/06/2019 09:14

The fact the toilet options were Men's and Gender Neutral is a metaphor for the whole gender debate. Men autonomously get to keep their boundaries, definitions, categories and spaces. The former category "women" now means "anybody". Men and Anybody. Funny how that exactly replicates oldstyle patterns of sexism and misogyny. Angry

Sorry for your terrifying experience... I'd fear the worst in that situation and be left shaky after.

CarrieTheTowel · 05/06/2019 09:20

Did you tell the cafe? They need to know the consequences of their decision.

Sicario · 05/06/2019 09:22

I think we should start calling it out wherever we see it and start plastering our findings all over social media and women's chat rooms.

Notes in St Martin's Lane has no women-only toilets. If you don't like sharing loo facilities with men, go elsewhere. @NotesLondon**

Ratonastick · 05/06/2019 09:27

I didn’t tell the cafe. The counter staff were all very young, very busy and clearly not decision makers about facilities provision. But I have found the website and will email their head office.

And the PP is right. The thought process is:
1 A GN facility has to be provided.

2 Changing the men’s is too difficult for us.

3 Changing the women’s is too difficult for them, but fuck ‘em who cares. It’s only women and we all know their safety concerns are made up bullshit anyway.

I think I will hold sending that email until I have cooled down a bit.

OP posts:
SnuggyBuggy · 05/06/2019 09:32

The whole gender identities thing does seem to divide the world into men and others. The labelling of toilets as men and gender neutral just brings this home. Men still get to be men but women just get lumped into the others group and lose our identity as women.

HumberElla · 05/06/2019 09:34

Hmmm, I feel a stickering opportunity has presented itself OP! I’m not far from there, I might pop by.

Seriously though, sorry you had to go through that. I would have been really upset too. What an entitled arsehole.

Hornets · 05/06/2019 09:36

OP is this coffee shop on Tripadvisor? might be worth posting something on that for all to see (not just social media).

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 09:37

My teenage DD and her friends like to go to a Starbucks in town where the (separate) men and woman's loos are in the basement. It creeps me out. I've told her to use the disabled loo which is on the same floor as the tables. No doubt some passing Mumsnetter would get pissy with her but her safety comes first.

CarrieTheTowel · 05/06/2019 09:38

OP I would keep it as factual and non-political as poss.

JackyHolyoake · 05/06/2019 09:46

I am wondering if this situation with toilets, where the men have a private single sex facility and women are forced to use mixed sex facilities is a case of sex discrimination. Women are being treated less favourably than men here.

VickyEadie · 05/06/2019 10:21

I've mentioned before my experience of visiting a place (it's en route to visiting my Dad and I have to stop there for a wee sometimes as there's absolutely nowhere else) which is a restaurant and massive play centre for kids. They've designed the toilets with this is mind and at first sight, you might think 'Yeah, I can see why they've done this'.

There's one big mixed toilets room with a lot of cubicles either side of a big handwashing area. The cubicles include some that are designed for a parent to take their child into - they have a big person's toilet pan and a little person's one. "What a good idea!" you think at first - parent might be Dad with his little girl, they can both go in there.

However - the cubicles are too small to get a buggy in with you - so if you're a Mum with buggy child and other child, you're a bit stuffed in an area into which anyone (as I've demonstrated, by simply going in to go for a wee and then legging it) can turn up in the loos.

I also felt a bit vulnerable - I thought was in there alone, but had no idea if anyone was lurking in a cubicle. And as the toilets are right next to the entrance/exit, any man could enter at any time, force me into a cubicle and assault me.

HumberElla · 05/06/2019 10:34

An office I frequently have to work from has basement toilets. Outside the office doors, across a courtyard, two flights down, through two sets of double fire doors. I absolutely hate using them, it’s completely isolated and pitch dark, but have no choice.

At the moment they are separated male and female. If I saw any bloke outside or inside the female ones I would leg it. As It’s woke central I’m expecting this to change as soon as some beardy spots it and makes a fuss about needing GN and that will mean the female one will have to go.

In which case I will be taking a 30 minute loo break to walk to the nearest alternative, female only provision.

sheshootssheimplores · 05/06/2019 10:42

They always change the females as we are the safer sex because 1) we know our place and won’t fight it 2) it’s our toilets that seem to be the target in terms of who wants access 3) it will always seem a better safe guarding option to channel all and sundry into the female toilet as we are very unlikely to physically assault the person.

Datun · 05/06/2019 10:42

I am wondering if this situation with toilets, where the men have a private single sex facility and women are forced to use mixed sex facilities is a case of sex discrimination. Women are being treated less favourably than men here.

I was just about to post something similar, Jacky. Two toilets for men and only one for women. A single sex space for men and none for women.

That's discriminatory.

Is it not doubly so, in light of the fact that women's biology indicates they need more facilities than men, not fewer?

And don't the toilet provision regulations insist on a single sex facility for each sex, if there is room?

XXVaginaAndAUterus · 05/06/2019 10:59

PLEASE make as big a fuss out of this as you can. Much though I hate that something scary happened to you, I'm glad it wasn't worse and in a strategic way, it happened to a GC person who is prepared to do something to proteste it. Please let's make the most of that, because it will happen to quite less confident women who won't speak up, and worse could happen. Let's make it impossible for them or anybody else to say they couldn't have foreseen it.

It's okay to tell the staff. In fact it's an important. If management ask them if there have been any issues, at the moment they'll say no. I'd far rather we were an inconvenience to a busy cafe than somebody get attacked in the gender neutral loos. And I've been on that busy powerless cafe worker's side of the counter.

Please post to ALL their social media accounts and trip advisor. State facts - there were men only but no women only loos in a dark basement, and a man made you feel unsafe as a result.

Write two written complaints - one to the manager of that specific site, one to head office. They can be the same letter. Make it clear your complaint is that they have taken away female sex specific toilets.

And thank you. Because this matters.

ThePurportedDoctoress · 05/06/2019 11:06

I am wondering if this situation with toilets, where the men have a private single sex facility and women are forced to use mixed sex facilities is a case of sex discrimination. Women are being treated less favourably than men here.

I should think so.
I think ultimately it's the local authorities who need to get a grip on this issue, since many councils especially in London rely on commercial premises to provide public toilets.
For fair provision, the ratio should be 2 female toilets to every male one. Having one for men and one for men+others isn't even equal provision.

Mummaofmytribe · 05/06/2019 11:13

I'm sorry that happened to you. You must have been really shocked. It's bloody disgraceful that you were put in that position. Please communicate your experience to the business. We have to show that our fears are very real. Our space is no longer ours and is unsafe.

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/06/2019 11:24

I've told her to use the disabled loo which is on the same floor as the tables

Don't blame you in the slightest, this is going to be the inevitable consequence. Women who have been excluded from a safe, available loo will be forced to use the disabled loo and hence impact on another quiet, unseen minority who fought for decades and decades to get provision, and are also getting their provision relabelled and redesignated.

In their case the re labelling has to remove any reference to disability as it's 'stigmatising' - words just fail in the foot in mouth, total trampling of the whole of the rest of society and the failure to care about anyone else.

Deathraystare · 05/06/2019 11:32

I remember an advert about providing safe toilets for women in the 3rd world - India or Africa I think. We are clearly going back in time!