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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender neutral loos - a personal experience

72 replies

Ratonastick · 05/06/2019 08:55

Yesterday I was in a poncy coffee shop and popped to the loo. There were two self contained loos down in the basement, one Gent’s and one gender neutral. I had to wait until a chap came out of the GN one. I went in but before I could lock the door, he burst back in saying that he had left his phone.

It was fucking terrifying, he literally flung the door open without knocking or anything. I was in a 10ft square room in an enclosed basement with a ranty stranger. He was about a foot taller than me and clearly pissed off that he had lost his phone and saw my presence as something that stopped him finding it. He almost (but not quite) manhandled me out of his way. I went into a sort of flight mode, I was terrified. I legged it out of the loo and waited at the bottom of the stairs (where I could run if I needed to) until he came out. He came out looking really pissed off and grumbled at me that he had lost it and stomped off.

I went into the loo, very carefully locked it and double checked and triple checked the lock so I could pee (I was desperate so couldn’t wait to go anywhere else, my pelvic floor doesn’t have the staying power). By the time I left he had gone.

So that is it, right there: The problem of men in women’s space. He would tell that story very differently. He lost his phone and couldn’t find it and had to go back to the loo to look for it. Total entitlement that he could walk back into a private space. Absolutely no fucking clue that he scared the living shit out of a woman in a space where she would and should expect to be safe. We need sex segregated bogs, it’s that simple.

And it was Notes in St Martins Lane should you wish to avoid it. The Cafe in the Crypt is nicer anyway.

OP posts:
FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 16:01

if you really think Starbucks loos are dangerous she could go with another girl

Jesus - this is like The Handmaid's Tale - women must go everywhere in pairs.

CloudRusting · 05/06/2019 16:22

So a couple of weeks ago I was at an event at a client’s offices. The only available toilets were the “gender neutral” ones that had 3 toilets with almost floor to ceiling solid doors, 3 sinks in an open area and a main door opening onto the main floor. The people attending were fellow professionals in similar roles to me.

And what surprised me was actually just how uncomfortable I felt being in these toilets with men, particularly when there were a couple of men and me. Even though given all the above factors the actual risk to me was very remote, my instincts felt very unhappy about this and were telling me to leave.

EvacuateTheCardinals · 05/06/2019 16:33

I visited the Royal Albert Hall last week and afterwards received an email asking me to review my visit. I explained how their single sex toilets in the café/bar area were very unpleasant with urine everywhere, and that it was annoying, disgusting and time consuming for me to have to tear off a strip of loo roll, wet it and soap it, clean the seat, dry the seat, wash and dry my hands before I could do my business and wash my hands again. We just have to keep chipping away at this at every opportunity. I see someone (OP?) has left a new review for Notes on Trip Advisor.

LassOfFyvie · 05/06/2019 17:02

personally I think you are installing an unnecessary level of fear in your daughter

What a strange thing to say! She's independent and confident so I think I'm doing ok as a mum, thanks

It would be unfair of me to comment on your parenting but I stand by what I said. I think you are installing unnecessary levels of fear.

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 17:27

It would be unfair of me to comment on your parenting but I stand by what I said. I think you are installing unnecessary levels of fear

Oh fuck off, Lass Grin I think you're trolling me so I'll leave you to it.

LangCleg · 05/06/2019 17:47

I think you are installing unnecessary levels of fear.

Perhaps Fleetwood feels that the current push toward the loss of single sex spaces installs an unnecessary level of risk, so is providing her daughter with strategies to offset it?

You know: like haXXor's demonstration of the Swiss cheese model as applied to toilets I posted upthread. If both social convention and single sex layers are removed, perhaps Fleetwood thinks personal augmentation of individual layers is a necessary evil.

Ratonastick · 05/06/2019 18:01

Blimey, I've come back to this thread having spent an afternoon waiting for the NHS to match my notes to my appointment (i’ll get to sex specific healthcare when I have finished with the khazis).

I haven’t reviewed or emailed yet, but I will definitely do so. But I do want to address a point on language. Someone DM’d me asking to change the thread title to mixed sex not gender neutral. I absolutely agree with the point that language matters and will use mixed sex in my comms with the company. However I don’t want to change it here as this is a female led GC environment and it is worth leaving it to remind us how easy it is to slip into the language of transactivism. Rohypnol, indeed.

And the offending establishment is Notes in St Martins Lane by Trafalgar Square in London. I mentioned the Cafe in the Crypt rather flippantly in my OP but it is a 100 yd’s away and is a social enterprise supporting the mission work of St Martins in the Field, particularly around homelessness. I’m not a Christian myself but I massively admire and support their work and it doesn’t feel religious or churchy at all. It’s a fascinating historical place, lovely environment, very reasonably priced and bloody delicious. And has excellent facilities so I do strongly urge any passing Mumsnetter who needs a cuppa to stop by.

OP posts:
MenuPlant · 05/06/2019 18:04

Cafe in the crypt got it 😊

Hope you put that on TripAdvisor 😁

HumberElla · 05/06/2019 18:49

I’ve been thinking about this today and it occurred to me that one of the reasons toilet doors are generally not floor to ceiling and have gaps, is for rescue. I learned this on a first aid course years ago.

If you are unwell, you are very likely to make your way to a toilet for privacy. When people choke, when women miscarry, when experiencing first signs of a heart attack or stroke, they often end up seeking sanctuary and then when things get serious they are locked in the loo.

GN toilets with entirely enclosed floor to ceiling walls and doors make it much harder to see into or help someone if they are in trouble. If the person collapses, can’t speak or is disoriented and in pain they can’t be reached. These toilets are not safe.

The answer is male and female only provision with doors that are accessible in an emergency. Third spaces should be separately considered, if need be, and by those who want to fight for them.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/06/2019 19:07

I think they will be used for, ummm ‘liaisons’. And that will be a bugger for anyone desperately waiting for a pee (and a bit ikky).

LassOfFyvie · 05/06/2019 19:12

Oh fuck off, LassI think you're trolling me so I'll leave you to it.

I don't swear. I am not trolling you. I stand by what I said. If anyone is creating a Handmaid Tale scenario it is you by making your daughter scared of everything.

SeaRabbit · 05/06/2019 19:13

I think we should all start posting Trip Adviser comments on loo provision when we visit a coffee shop restaurant or whatever, and whether there are queues for the ladies, as well as emailing/using SM to complain direct about poor provision.

I emailed Wagamama at the weekend and got a phone call from their chief growth officer (female) to discuss the points I raised. It seems they were a bit stunned by the response they got to their oh so woke announcement.

XXVaginaAndAUterus · 05/06/2019 19:35

I'm sad that an able bodies teenage girl is using a disabled toilet because she/her mum is fearful of what might happen if she uses the ladies.

I've been a person in need of using a disabled loo - I'm not sure I would have been very polite if I'd have had to wait for an able bodied person to use it first. I would, because hidden disabilities

XXVaginaAndAUterus · 05/06/2019 19:36

... and if I were afraid of using the toilets in a Starbucks, I wouldn't go for a Starbucks.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/06/2019 19:37

We do need a database of facilities and companies who are jumping the bandwagon (Pantene, I am looking at you).

DecomposingComposers · 05/06/2019 19:46

I've told her to use the disabled loo which is on the same floor as the tables

Sorry but this isn't right. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the facilities don't meet your needs then you either try to get them changed or you don't use that establishment. How can it be right to take away from another even less privileged group? A person with a disability might have no option to be able to use the basement toilets and as well as sharing one toilet with all other people with disabilities and baby changing they now have to share with others who don't want to go to the single sex toilets.

That's not fair.

MenuPlant · 05/06/2019 19:46

"I’ve been thinking about this today and it occurred to me that one of the reasons toilet doors are generally not floor to ceiling and have gaps, is for rescue. I learned this on a first aid course years ago."

This is exactly true esp in pubs clubs where people get drunk and pass out on the bog

  • places with younger children who are very good at locking themselves in

It's like all the considerations and years of learning and change and lobbying and so on are being chucked out the window.

YY to drug use and shagging.

MenuPlant · 05/06/2019 19:49

I find it interesting that no-one has addressed the point - that is anecdata but gathered from a few sources- that it's men who are the worst abusers of facilities that aren't for them.

Certainly the man who took his time having a stinking shit at the tube station ladies (it was a driver) looked not at all concerned to come out to find a queue of women 2 of whom were heavily pregnant.

Plus of course men can and do go anywhere if the toilets are not to their liking (for a piss) - women not so much.

Toilets are def a feminist issue and all this "men" and "all genders" stuff is just adding to it.

MenuPlant · 05/06/2019 19:50

I think people (men and women) feel more comfortable and used to judging / telling off women than men.

We are socialised to be "good" plus unlikely to get violent if challenged + men are given more sort of, they are left alone more. Allowed to get on with what they are doing. Women and girls are more public property.

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 19:53

it is you by making your daughter scared of everything

I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that my DD is scared of everything because I've advised her to use the loo on the ground floor rather than the one in the basement where she is quite vulnerable. You are disparaging both me as a mother and my daughter who is actually brave and resilient. And I don't care if you swear or not.

DecomposingComposers · 05/06/2019 19:56

MenuPlant

If a man was on here saying that he uses accessible toilets, or that he's telling another able bodied person to use them then yes I would call them out.

Will I call out anyone, male or female, using them irl? No, because I have no idea if they are genuinely entitled to be in there. But to so openly say that's what you're doing isn't on.

I think it just goes to show though that people are inherently selfish. All the complaints at the moment about rights being taken away from women and the answer appears to be to take them away from an even more disadvantaged group in return.

GrinitchSpinach · 05/06/2019 19:56

They are mixed sex toilets and we need to use this term each and every time to ram the point home.

There is nothing neutral about them.

Hear, hear!

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