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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender neutral loos - a personal experience

72 replies

Ratonastick · 05/06/2019 08:55

Yesterday I was in a poncy coffee shop and popped to the loo. There were two self contained loos down in the basement, one Gent’s and one gender neutral. I had to wait until a chap came out of the GN one. I went in but before I could lock the door, he burst back in saying that he had left his phone.

It was fucking terrifying, he literally flung the door open without knocking or anything. I was in a 10ft square room in an enclosed basement with a ranty stranger. He was about a foot taller than me and clearly pissed off that he had lost his phone and saw my presence as something that stopped him finding it. He almost (but not quite) manhandled me out of his way. I went into a sort of flight mode, I was terrified. I legged it out of the loo and waited at the bottom of the stairs (where I could run if I needed to) until he came out. He came out looking really pissed off and grumbled at me that he had lost it and stomped off.

I went into the loo, very carefully locked it and double checked and triple checked the lock so I could pee (I was desperate so couldn’t wait to go anywhere else, my pelvic floor doesn’t have the staying power). By the time I left he had gone.

So that is it, right there: The problem of men in women’s space. He would tell that story very differently. He lost his phone and couldn’t find it and had to go back to the loo to look for it. Total entitlement that he could walk back into a private space. Absolutely no fucking clue that he scared the living shit out of a woman in a space where she would and should expect to be safe. We need sex segregated bogs, it’s that simple.

And it was Notes in St Martins Lane should you wish to avoid it. The Cafe in the Crypt is nicer anyway.

OP posts:
Thingybob · 05/06/2019 11:52

My only experience of gender neutral loos is in a newly built fastfood restaurant. All the boxes were ticked of being self contained, disabled friendly, spacious box rooms leading of a corridor so there is no issue with lack of privacy or the risk of being overheard.

I popped into this restaurant one evening whilst driving past for a burger and to use the loo. I found one of the toilets out of order and the other engaged so spent 15 minutes crossing my legs waiting for someone to emerge. I was beginning to think that this loo must be out of order too when a young couple came out looking rather flushed. In this case it appeared that their selfish behaviour was completely consensual but it did make me think about the risk these spaces pose. It would be extremely easy for a predator to follow an unsuspecting person into such a space then spend at least 15 minutes there without any risk of being detected.

WanderingBar · 05/06/2019 12:29

Sorry Fleetwood, but your attitude is horrible. "No doubt some passing Mumsnetter would get pissy" Seriously?

The person needing to use the disabled facilities for themselves or their dc is not the problem here. If you have an issue with the toilets being in a basement, take it up with Starbucks.

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/06/2019 12:33

I remember an advert about providing safe toilets for women in the 3rd world - India or Africa I think. We are clearly going back in time!

I pointed this out to a kool aid drunk male friend as part of seeking women's rights. He explained to me that we don't live in Africa or India.

He wasn't happy when I pointed out how racist this was.

CadburysTastesVileNow · 05/06/2019 12:59

I firmly believe that people with penises should go to one set of toilets, and people without penises to another, regardless of their gender identity.

But bear with me. I suspect it is now pretty much a given that compaining about an obviously male person in a 'womens' loo or changing room would result in a flea in the complainer's ear (if not a visit from the bobbies) if said male claimed a female gender identity. They would be permitted to remain.

Suppose the 'womens' loo / changing room was occupied by a transman, though? Were one to complain about a 'man' in the women's area, what would happen, do you think?

I have no doubt that they would not be ushered to the male facilities. Because in real terms there are 'men' and 'non-men', not 'men' and 'women'.

Jaxhog · 05/06/2019 13:05

The fact the toilet options were Men's and Gender Neutral

Even if they had been both changed to 'gender neutral' or Unisex, it may not have helped. I was on a course in London last year and poped into a 'unisex' toilet that used to be a gents. How do I know? Because when I came out of the cubicle a man was using the urinal. He didn't say anything but I legged it anyway.

Now I will only use a 'Ladies' or (preferably) a fully enclosed cubicle. Fortunately, I have a bladder the size of the pacific.

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 13:05

If you have an issue with the toilets being in a basement, take it up with Starbucks

And what do you suggest my teenaged DD does whilst waiting for Starbucks to relocate their toilets from the basement. Like that's going to happen!

WanderingBar · 05/06/2019 13:18

Fleetwood, what do you expect people with disabilities (including teens) to do while you are encouraging teenagers to use the facilities that disabled people fought for?

Your daughter can make adjustments, such as going in pairs to the toilets in the basement. People with disabilities can't do that, and it's not "pissy" to point that out.

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 13:24

what do you expect people with disabilities (including teens) to do while you are encouraging teenagers to use the facilities that disabled people fought for?

The same as they would do if another disabled person was already using the loo; wait their turn.

And how dare you accuse me of having a 'horrible' attitude when I am teaching my young daughter to stay safe.

WanderingBar · 05/06/2019 13:31

You are teaching your daughter to use facilities that were fought for, designed for and provided for arguably the most vulnerable group in society.

If all teenage girls used the disabled facilities it would severely impact on the people they were intended for. I'm very sad that you can't see that. I care about you daughters safety, I care about everyone's safety, but this isn't the solution.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/06/2019 13:49

I got as far as one Gent’s and one gender neutral and got pissed off - then I read the rest and that finished me off completely. I'm guessing its St Martins lane in London?

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 13:52

I'm very sad that you can't see that

Don't patronise me. I'm not teaching my DD to always use a loo designated for disabled people. I'm encouraging her to make risk assessments and act accordingly. So, if she needs the loo whilst out and about and feels uneasy about using the one designated for women (or anyone who identifies as a woman regardless of whether or not they have a penis) then she should use the disabled loo.

arguably the most vulnerable group in society

It's not a competition. Women are vulnerable too.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/06/2019 13:56

A review from Trip Adviser (do remember to write reviews for places)

Reviewed 8 April 2019
Nice cafe, good service, dreadful toilets. Whoever owns this place needs to go downstairs for a Pee. The Men's is closed/unavailable. So that leaves one loo, with the toilet seat hanging on by a thread (one side disconnected!) and at least a few months of dust/debris surrounding. Come on owner, sort this out!

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/06/2019 13:59

And another thing - being central I assume it has the same issues that out office loos have (unisex, individual loos in the basement of a building open to the public). Often occupied by rough sleepers, drunks and druggies. Just great - the cubicles are off a long, badly lit corridor int he basement (hard to find so usually very very quiet)

CassianAndor · 05/06/2019 14:01

That sounds dreadful, OP.

But can I put out a siren call to all women to stop referring to these as gender neutral toilets? They are mixed sex toilets and we need to use this term each and every time to ram the point home.

There is nothing neutral about them.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/06/2019 14:05

But the men still have their own Hmm

LassOfFyvie · 05/06/2019 14:06

FleetwoodStorms personally I think you are installing an unnecessary level of fear in your daughter but as another poster said if you really think Starbucks loos are dangerous she could go with another girl. Teenagers tend to do that anyway- using the accessible/ disabled loo is not on.

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 14:12

personally I think you are installing an unnecessary level of fear in your daughter

What a strange thing to say! She's independent and confident so I think I'm doing ok as a mum, thanks.

GrumpyGran8 · 05/06/2019 14:51

FleetwoodStorms
I'm not teaching my DD to always use a loo designated for disabled people. I'm encouraging her to make risk assessments and act accordingly.
In that case, tell her to get in, do her business, and get out without wasting a single second! There are people who are not nessessarily disabled but who need to get to the loo fast - pregnant women and people with colostomy bags are two I can immediately think of - who won't have the time to go down to the basement.

Justhadathought · 05/06/2019 14:58

Sorry Fleetwood, but your attitude is horrible. "No doubt some passing Mumsnetter would get pissy" Seriously?

Yes, a bit of a strange post - which reveals to me the extent to which many people don't really have a grasp or understanding of most issues. Many people just seem fairly content to be told what to think or believe, without having to do the hard work for themselves.

fikel · 05/06/2019 15:02

Do not want men in a ladies toilet. Simple

Justhadathought · 05/06/2019 15:02

..and then I saw that quite a few did get pissy.

MenuPlant · 05/06/2019 15:14

Re the accessible toilet argument

This is also intetesting

In my current job and my last job, loads of men used the disabled toilet rather than the gents. I don't know why.

Also in my last job there was a conversation and all the men in the group said they would use disabled facilities if it was convenient for them and there 'were no disabled people around'. The women all looked a bit shocked, none of them said they would do this, it hadn't occurred to them as those were 'not for them'.

This is sociasation in a nutshell. Girls and women are brought up to be good, follow the rules, and are heavily policed often by other women. Men and boys are taught to put themselves first and ignore rules if they deem them to be pointless.

This thing the transavtivists have done in making a free for all around provision that was fought so hard for by disabled people is appalling. They also suggest trans people use disabled facilities if it makes them comfy, or girls in schools who object to changing work boys get sent there etc. They should have campaigned for a third / or generally better spaces. Instead they have taken both female and disabled facilities and opened them up, and left spaces for able bodied males untouched.

Let's get angry with the right people here.

Jaxhog · 05/06/2019 15:17

if you really think Starbucks loos are dangerous she could go with another girl

I have an even simpler solution - boycott Starbucks! And any other establishment that thinks this is ok.

ScottishDoll · 05/06/2019 15:54

Boycott is all well and bad for business BUT does mean restricting women's lives - the return of the urinary leash.

Fresh air is what's required.

Women are entitled to single sex spaces.

FleetwoodStorms · 05/06/2019 15:57

Yes, a bit of a strange post - which reveals to me the extent to which many people don't really have a grasp or understanding of most issues. Many people just seem fairly content to be told what to think or believe, without having to do the hard work for themselves

Who is this post aimed at?