Semenya temporarily free to compete in 800m

[OrchidInTheSun]

As the last thread was deleted, I shall be very clearly staying within the talk guidelines.

Here's a report on the ruling: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/athletics/caster-semenya-olympic-champion-temporarily-cleared-to-compete-without-medication-by-swiss-court-a4158461.html

It's very unclear about what it actually means though. And why this court can overrule the sports body. Anyone shed any light?

Icelandic Yoghurt

Caster is XY, with internal testes.

The regulations only apply to an athlete:

who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have:
male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX)
testes not ovaries
circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and
the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’).

www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

I am calling Caster "they" because it seems today people are reporting to MNHQ if they are called the sex they are (the one that would be associated with XY). One thread on this was already deleted.

FeministCat whatever the athletic regs, she was born believing she was a woman, and has lived a female experience her whole life (other than being able to run unusually fast). It's pretty awful to deny her that imo.

That's not true. She seems to live a pretty male life off the track and has done for many years.

CS has known for some time what the results were of tests done, results of which were leaked in 2009. So the athlete, the family and those working with this athlete have known for a decade that this athlete has XY chromosomes. How this athlete was raised and what this athlete believes is irrelevant.

(I believe the test done were invasive and upsetting as was reported at the time, and I feel very sorry for anyone who is born with DSD and more sorry for those who, perhaps as a victim of their circumstance, did not get a diagnosis and physical and mental treatment until so late on. )

Caster's physical experience and social experience differs dramatically from that of an XX female, IcelandicYoghurt.
XY
No uterus
No menstruation
No pregnancy risk
No feminisation during puberty leading to adult female pelvis and skeletal joint angles.
Testes not ovaries
Male testosterone levels
Androgen sensitive
Different, masculinised anatomy and physique
And socially, Caster was allowed privileges alongside boys, that were denied to the girls.
Possibly because Caster considers girls 'boring' and 'soft'.

Caster is legally female, and noone is denying that. But I think it's important to be honest about the tangible differences between Caster's experience of childhood and puberty, and girls' experiences.
Otherwise we have to ignore some very significant and almost ubiquitous features of females to facilitate the 'not so very different' argument. And I'm not up for that unfairness.

This is why language is so important. All of the reports are about how Semenya is a woman with naturally high testosterone levels and it’s an injustice how she isn’t allowed to run in her desired race. This is completely false. Semenya is 46XY. That is an indisputable fact.

If the question is reframed as:

“Should a male whose external genitalia didn’t develop properly be allowed to run against women?”

then it’s puts a much greater accuracy on what’s happening and highlights the real injustice of Semenya competing.

How this athlete was raised and what this athlete believes is irrelevant.

YY.

Also, IcelandicYoghurt, Caster does not run "unusually fast" for their sex. Competing against XY people, they would even not be at world class levels, and would be bested by many high school boys.

The entire 800m women's podium in Rio was dominated by XY athletes. Does a lack of proper medical diagnosis at birth or in early childhood make it just to deny podium finishes to women in the women's category - podium finishes that for those women can mean opportunity, sponsorship, income, and yes, actually being an Olympic medallist. I know my answer to that.

www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi1u9O15s3iAhVFyxoKHa75BzMQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-6772989%2FIntersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html&psig=AOvVaw0DjNuFGKIXIAINeBgx3wHP&ust=1559668057728885

I am sharing this again because I think it's a very interesting story showing how a similar athlete was treated many years ago. I think they got it right then and I'm not sure how it has been allowed to continue unfairly in this case.

Yes feminist cat. Sums it up,

NotBadConsidering

If the question is reframed as:

“Should a male whose external genitalia didn’t develop properly be allowed to run against women?”

That is a great way to phrase it, very stark. Thanks.

I'm not sure I've ever heard anything less feminist that using the fact that someone sits with their legs open to judge their femininity.

And (sadly) I've met many women who complain about women and say they get on better with men. It's a shame, but doesn't exactly mean that they themselves are not women.

I'm not wading in to the athletics thing but you completely ruin your credibility by going on about "man spreading" and her coach's English mistakes (a mistake that plenty of non native English speakers make, in fact he also referred to her as "she" in the example you yourself have) and make yourself sound like a bigot.

IcelandicYoghurt

1. The biological and scientific accuracy of this case is paramount, so you can’t just ignore the “athletics thing”.

2. you were the one who said Semenya had “lived the female experience”. So what does that mean? Presumably if you think there is a lived female experience you must think there is a lived male experience, so how would you define that, as opposed to what Semenya has lived? What is it about Semenya’s life that means she has “lived the female experience?

3. if someone is male in all but lived experience, do you think they should be allowed to compete against women?

You talked about CS living a female experience. Other posters (myself included) were refuting that.

Why ignore the rest of the post?

Slightly different note, but are we seeing a change in the way this is being reported?

[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/03/caster-semenya-800m-swiss-supreme-court-ruling-iaaf]

Noted the G mentions internal testes, plus they also highlighted the immediate impact of the ruling “Last week in Stockholm a Diamond League women’s 800m race was won by a non-DSD athlete – the American Ajee Wilson – for the first time since 2015. Semenya and the Burundi athlete Francine Niyonsaba had won the last 22 races.”

Could she compete as male? Genuine question.

I think she could Ridley on the basis that trans (of course she is intersex) athletes can compete in the Olympics after a qualifying period in their chosen gender. The difference is that her time in the 800 metres is so much slower than a man's. Even assuming her running time qualified for a men's race, I don't think her personal best comes anywhere near getting a medal.

I am finding it hard respect them as an individual.

Me too. Particularly given comments about women as seen upthread.

IcelandicYoghurt

Why are you ignoring the facts presented to you and complaining about the references to Caster ‘living as a man’ when you yourself claimed they ‘lived as a woman’.

Explain what you mean by your phrase, ‘living as a woman’ then.

Do you now understand they are 46XY & that they have known this for some time- likely before it was official.

If the question is reframed as:

“Should a male whose external genitalia didn’t develop properly be allowed to run against women?

This is great. It really changes the conversation. How clever South African sporting bodies have been huh... or perhaps the word is devious.

Why was the other thread deleted?

IcelandicYogurt It's not merely 'judging' someone for sitting with their legs apart. I, a woman, am actually unable to sit with my legs so far apart. This is because of my female pelvis with the resultant angle of the femur. That sitting position we see CS adopt is male. And it's knowledge & observation on our part, not judgement.

“Should a male whose external genitalia didn’t develop properly be allowed to run against women?

This.

It does all show how incredibly influential pronouns are. The TRUTH is being obscured here.

I am sick to death of this gaslighting bullshit.