Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why does Mumsnet listen to outsiders, rather than just Mumsnet users?

166 replies

loveyouradvice · 03/06/2019 18:08

The fact that the reporting on this board is openly led by 'members' who never post, never participate on MN, merely stalk the boards to police women talking here because of some self appointed sense of superiority and then brag about this on Twitter is in itself extremely creepy. On what other MN board are men permitted to stalk and police women?

Having read this on another board, I realise how much this worries me... why would Mumsnet listen to "anonymous" sources, rather than reports from their users? I am sure the Mumsnet community is very powerful at calling out the unacceptable... why Mumsnet do you listen to strangers?

OP posts:
EmpressLesbianInChair · 05/06/2019 22:31

Anyone else seen this? m.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LHELbe5Bg

Absolutepowercorrupts · 05/06/2019 23:22

Yes Empress, I've seen it and the repeated message definitely gets through. And it's true. I won't Ever Lie. Human beings cannot change Sex.
Gronky you gave it a good shot and the supportive posters were a real nice touch. Not inspired though, you folks must try harder. Well done for wasting your time.

ZebrasAreBras · 05/06/2019 23:36

TBH I've found Gronky's posts here part of the problem. It's like gaslighting. Actually it is gaslighting.

"Repeat after me - there are no special rules for trans rights discussion...." when we can see with our very eyes there are, and they are pinned to the top of this board Confused

Feels v similar to the mantra "Repeat after us - Transwomen are Women" that was projected onto (I forget the building - was it the Houses of Parliament? some building in London, anyway) - when our eyes, our senses, tell us different.

Gronky · 06/06/2019 06:40

Absolutepowercorrupts

Could you please clarify 'supportive posters' and 'you folks'?

ZebrasAreBras

I do think that's rather insulting to victims of gaslighting to conflate a disagreement over whether a clarification of a specific form of discriminatory language constitutes "go[ing] way beyond the moderation rules for any other protected group" with a form of abuse that has people questioning the accuracy of their own memories.

Earlier, you said:
Jeez - the Mumsnet I joined all those years ago was robust - full of strong intelligent women. Who argued and disagreed, and discussed and laughed.

If a disagreement with you over an interpretation as to whether what is (in my view) a clarification of a specific rule (transphobia is listed in the general talk guidelines) constitutes extraordinary restrictions and whether these rules only apply to a specific section (again, I believe that they do not, rather they are pinned here because this is where they are most likely to come into play) is somehow objectionable, then would you like to comment further on your above statement? Otherwise, you're presenting your opinions as fact and demanding all either agree with you or be labeled as enemies of truth. If the latter is the case then I would say that this, to me, actually does constitute a (very, very mild) form of gaslighting.

ZebrasAreBras · 06/06/2019 06:55

Gaslighting is quite simply the act of making someone doubt their sanity by manipulating the reality of what's in front of their eyes.

Stonewall telling me transwomen are women = gaslighting.

You telling me that the trans guidelines pinned to this board is a "clairification of a specific rule" when women here know that's not true = gaslighting.

TheAngryLlama · 06/06/2019 07:02

Gronky: C-
Pompous obtuse waffle
Sorry

Gronky · 06/06/2019 07:30

You telling me that the trans guidelines pinned to this board is a "clairification of a specific rule" when women here know that's not true = gaslighting.

It's a little disappointing that you're both presenting your opinion as objective truth and presuming to speak for all women here (it should be self evident that you don't speak for me). It's also a little ironic that earlier you spoke so highly of robust discussion and now seem content to sit upon it.

TheAngryLlama

Thank you, I'll add it to my CV. Smile

ZebrasAreBras · 06/06/2019 07:34

It's not an opinion that there are specific trans guidelines pinned to the top of this board.

It's not an opinion that the 3 strikes rule was introduced for these new guidelines.

Those are facts.

Gronky · 06/06/2019 07:40

ZebrasAreBras

I fully agree with that, my disagreement is with your interpretation that those are exceptional protections for a specific group, that the 3 strikes rule only applies for posts contravening those specific restrictions (on the basis that it says otherwise in the guidelines themselves) and that they only apply within Feminism Chat.

ZebrasAreBras · 06/06/2019 07:49

They don't only apply to just the FWR board - I've never said that. But they do only apply to breach of the trans guidelines.

ZebrasAreBras · 06/06/2019 07:56

What is boils down to is unequal treatment.

A racist post won't get a strike - otherwise that would have to be detailed in the generic guidelines.

LangCleg · 06/06/2019 08:51

Of course you're gaslighting! You know further restrictions are put on FWR and you know that there is malicious reporting. You know it. We know it. We know you know it. You know we know it.

You know: plain, nose, face.

TheAngryLlama · 06/06/2019 09:08

You’re looking for a job? I commend your optimism. You never know, eh?

littlbrowndog · 06/06/2019 09:15

I really find it hard to understand what gronky is writing.

lorit · 06/06/2019 09:27

That's the goal. A long "calm" stream of gibberish which ignores the issues.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 06/06/2019 09:28

I stopped reading the thread! I think Zebras deserves a medal

littlbrowndog · 06/06/2019 09:32

Oh really

I just gave up reading what gronky was writing so I guess gronky missed what they intended say

littlbrowndog · 06/06/2019 09:33

To convay

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 06/06/2019 11:05

DUCK!!!!

That is all

ZebrasAreBras · 06/06/2019 11:10

Duck.

Why does Mumsnet listen to outsiders, rather than just Mumsnet users?
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 06/06/2019 11:47

Oh man thats one laid back duck

Both literally and figuratively

Gronky · 06/06/2019 11:51

A racist post won't get a strike - otherwise that would have to be detailed in the generic guidelines

I agree that it's perhaps not quite as clear as an ironclad legal document but:
Will FWR be the only area of the boards where we have a three strikes system?
We haven't had to formalise this elsewhere, but in practice, three deletions would usually lead to a suspension elsewhere on site.

seems to specify that any 3 deletions (regardless of underlying rule breaking specifics) can result in a ban. Would you agree that the best way forwards would be clarification from MNHQ, to the effect of stating whether this only includes deletions relating to the above clarifications or if it's a universal policy?

LangCleg are you dictating which opinions about an interpretation are reasonable to hold? I'm sure I've heard that complaint before Hmm

littlbrowndog, lorit I'm more than happy to clarify anything you'd choose to quote if you're having difficulty.

Also, a fine quack to you all. Smile

R0wantrees · 06/06/2019 12:10

'50 Shades Of Gaslighting: Disturbing Signs An Abuser Is Twisting Your Reality'

useful extended article worth reading in full By Shahida Arabi
Updated September 29, 2018
(extracts)
"Gaslighting, explained.
How do you convince someone that something they know to be true isn’t? In psychology, what is known as the “illusory truth effect” is a phenomenon in which a listener comes to believe something primarily because it has been repeated so often. When an abuser continually tells you that you are oversensitive or that what you are experiencing is in no way abuse, you begin believing it, even if you know deep down it isn’t true.

In other words, a lie that is repeated long enough eventually can be seen as the truth. Researchers Hasher, Goldstein and Toppino (1997) discovered that when a statement (even when it is false and readers know it to be false) is repeated multiple times, it was more likely to be rated as true simply due to the effects of repetition. This is because when we’re assessing a claim, we rely on either the credibility of the source from which the claim is derived or familiarity with that claim. Surprisingly, familiarity often trumps credibility or rationality when assessing the perceived validity of a statement (Begg, Anas, and Farinacci, 1992; Geraci, L., & Rajaram, 2016).

The illusory truth effect can cause us to become susceptible to the effects of another dangerous form of reality erosion known as gaslighting. Deliberate manipulators who gaslight with the intention of eroding your reality and rewriting history tend to use the “illusory truth effect” to their advantage. They will repeat falsehoods so often that they become ingrained in the victim’s mind as unshakeable truths." (continues)

Gaslighting allows perpetrators to evade accountability for their actions, to deflect responsibility and exercise their control over their partners with alarming ease.

“Narcissists are like Teflon; nothing sticks. They don’t take responsibility. For anything. They are master deflectors and try to avoid the blame when cheating, stealing and everything in between. They make up complex excuses and can rationalize anything. When they are finally called out, they are quick to claim they are being persecuted, though they may be apologetic for a minute. When someone never takes responsibility for anything – words, actions, feelings – it is a challenging, if not impossible way to maintain a relationship.” Dr. Durvasula, Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship With a Narcissist

Here are some ways in which gaslighting can show up in toxic relationships:

  1. Denial and dismissal.
  2. Shaming and Emotional Invalidation.
  3. Pathologizing the Victim. (continues)

Gaslighting in Conversations
What does gaslighting look like in day to day conversations? It usually involves some form of the following:

Malignant repetition of falsehoods...
Minimizing the impact or severity of the abuse...
Projection and generalization...
Withholding information and stonewalling...
Questioning their memory, emotional stability and/or competence...
Bringing in a third party/the triangulation maneuver...
Diversions from the topic to assassinate the victim’s character or challenge the validity of the relationship... (continues)

A Note About Gaslighting on a Societal Level
Gaslighting can also take place in contexts outside of intimate relationships. It can occur in the workplace, in family units, in schools, in politics, in cults and in society as a whole. Society often gaslights women, for example, by depicting them as “overemotional,” “unhinged” or “crazy” when they dare to be anything less than demure and submissive or when they ‘dare’ to be enraged about the way they’re being treated." (continues)

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

Sometimes it's tempting to make a bingo card!

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

LangCleg · 06/06/2019 12:10

You can argue black is blue all day if you like. It won't make black into blue. We're all busy pointing out that black isn't blue on a thread about a woman being attacked this morning and that's a tad more important than your time wasting, frankly.

littlbrowndog · 06/06/2019 12:22

No thanks gronky. It is just a stream of blah blah blah 🤦‍♀️

Swipe left for the next trending thread