Why does Mumsnet listen to outsiders, rather than just Mumsnet users?

[loveyouradvice]

The fact that the reporting on this board is openly led by 'members' who never post, never participate on MN, merely stalk the boards to police women talking here because of some self appointed sense of superiority and then brag about this on Twitter is in itself extremely creepy. On what other MN board are men permitted to stalk and police women?

Having read this on another board, I realise how much this worries me... why would Mumsnet listen to "anonymous" sources, rather than reports from their users? I am sure the Mumsnet community is very powerful at calling out the unacceptable... why Mumsnet do you listen to strangers?

You are confusing your perception with absolute reality.

Not at all Justhadathought, I acknowledged that it is only my perception and asked whether I would be entitled to report my concerns to the authorities, not to automatically have those concerns taken as justification for stopping the perceived hate speech. Exactly as here, everyone is entitled to raise their concerns but the ultimate decision rests with the appropriate authority (in this case, moderators).

MN can't stop them anywhere other than on their website

Excellent point, Isatis. I think people who have never suffered genuine coercive control have trouble differentiating between the rights of a private website to control what content is on that website and the way being a victim of coercive control results in an abuser so deeply taking over the victim's mind.

I think people who have never suffered genuine coercive control have trouble differentiating between the rights of a private website to control what content is on that website and the way being a victim of coercive control results in an abuser so deeply taking over the victim's mind

Well I have suffered ‘genuine’ coercive control, and I’ve seen it done first hand to my mother. This is nothing to do with a private website doing what they want, they are allowing the control to happen. Compelled speech, controlled speech, when talking about your own life, is absolutely coercive control. We have one space to talk about this with each other, and still we are being affected by what men want.

medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

This is nothing to do with a private website doing what they want, they are allowing the control to happen.

I think that takes a rather dim view of MNHQ, it seems rather invidious to presume that, because they don't act as you would like them to, this is indicative of them ceding control.

We have one space to talk about this with each other

Perhaps you and others with similar beliefs could start a site where you are free to set your own rules? There is a range of open source (free) software for creating forums.

I think that asking for specific rules to be removed (and, indeed, added) is quite reasonable but setting specific terms as to what represents a presence or lack of the wants of men being represented seems to me to be demanding that a specific set of opinions are empirically correct.

I may be wrong but I also feel like your statement is suggesting that there is a specific set of rules that one would be against and for if one were female and another if one were male (or a/not a feminist/other).

I do have a sense of "does it really matter?" As long as you dont contravene the guidelines, which we've become adept at doing. Let them have their special feelz trans specific guidelines. This is still the best place for discussion of womens rights issues and the TRA agenda (note I didnt say trans agenda)

I do find it odd that they dont spend their time policing KF or R though which are full of actual trans "nasty comments" (I refuse to say phobia as its not a phobia). But if they choose to waste their time in this manner, up to them. Its only ever going to be a minority of people doing it and hasn't actually been successful at stifling debate so, do we really care that it's unfair special treatment?

it seems rather invidious to presume that, because they don't act as you would like them to, this is indicative of them ceding control.

Don’t reduce it to ‘ act as you would like’. This has been going on for ages. They changed the rules as a specific response to the campaigning and pressure from TRA’s. We are seeing it happen. I’m not going to accept you telling us it isn’t. I’ve had enough of that in my life thank you very much.

I’ve also been subject to domestic coercive control and I don’t find the comparison in the least offensive (and Christ, isn’t the word “offensive” forced to do overtime these days? Part of the whole problem right there). In fact, the comparison chimes for me because it describes a very similar thought process of tiptoeing round fearing that something you said would be taken as “offensive” at any moment.

It describes very well the process of thought control currently underway across our society, not just on Mumsnet. It’s not enough that people agree that trans people should have their rights and freedoms protected under the law and in day to day life. We have to say that we honestly believe that a man can become a woman. On another thread just now, a fervent trans supporter illustrated this very nicely by saying something along the lines of “I have to stop thinking down these lines, because I might stray into thinking something misandrist”. She’s schooling herself not to have the heretical thoughts at all. And thinking we should all do the same. I disagree so strongly with that.

I’m with Elizabeth I on this: I do not seek to make windows into men’s souls. Believe what you will, but don’t compel others to do the same.

Anyway, back to the original topic. I think MNHQ are in a difficult position, and seem to be mostly doing ok in trending the fine line between allowing debate and not bringing the eye of Sauron upon them. I can only imagine the daily barrage of threats and abuse they get for letting any of this discussion take place at all...

The debate here is inarguable. They know. That's why they seek to intimidate women into silence and why they seek to sabotage debate on this forum.

And they also know that women all over the world will be reading & (horror) ‘educating themselves’. That’s why they don’t go after sites like Kiwi Farms. Mumsnet has the audience.

don’t reduce it to ‘ act as you would like

I like fairness

Holding posters on one board to a higher standard than other boards on the same forum is unfair

Thats it, thats the end

Its no good posters saying its not happening...it is

Its literally pointless arguing the fact, that’s exactly why the OP wasn’t looking for a debate on whether its happening or not...it is

And i think a lot of the times most regulars appreciate the whole rock and hard place thing

But we’ve lost good posters due to report gaming, we’ve lost good posts for the same reason

none of this is important, many many times on mumsnet ive heard of groups of posters going to other forums

Reddit for instance has a fair few, ive heard Facebook has meet ups, kiwifarms, I’m sure there are others

But if i was actually afraid of posters on mumsnet, i wouldnt goad them into leaving...I’d want those fuckers in plain sight

But I’m sure that some of the mouldies, or mumsnet trolls people are on both forums multi tasking and all

I’ve also been subject to domestic coercive control and I don’t find the comparison in the least offensive (and Christ, isn’t the word “offensive” forced to do overtime these days? Part of the whole problem right there). In fact, the comparison chimes for me because it describes a very similar thought process of tiptoeing round fearing that something you said would be taken as “offensive” at any moment.

I'm sorry you went through that, darling.

I think most women who have been through it, helped a friend who has been through it, or worked on the frontlines (not the idiotic captured management) in the women's sector, recognise the patterns immediately.

It should also be noticed that coercive controllers often co-opt authorities to act as abuse proxies. And I believe that happens here on FWR.

Oh and ive said this before

But i do think it would be useful to have reasons for deletion on posts

It has happened on occasion but posts are deleted on here for all sorts of reasons and it would be very useful to know why as i have seen posters saying it was for a personal attack or transphobia when it wasnt

it was a long time ago, lang but thank you

I agree it’s not fair, rufus, and i’m upset at the amazing posters that we’ve lost, of course. I just try to work with what we have, which is a space where we can discuss these things, albeit while being monitored and controlled like billy-oh...

I think most women who have been through it, helped a friend who has been through it, or worked on the frontlines (not the idiotic captured management) in the women's sector, recognise the patterns immediately.

Yes, exactly. It's such an unmistakable feeling once you've recognised it. I'm fortunate enough to have never have been a victim myself, but I supported a friend in her divorce from a very controlling, abusive man. Went with her to solicitors, was her mckenzie friend in court, read the horrible man's e-mails for her etc. Once you see it, you recognise coercive control in any form.

And controlling women's speech and language on a forum is a form of control - and it's the TRAs way of silencing dissent.

I acknowledged that it is only my perception and asked whether I would be entitled to report my concerns to the authorities, not to automatically have those concerns taken as justification for stopping the perceived hate speech. Exactly as here, everyone is entitled to raise their concerns but the ultimate decision rests with the appropriate authority (in this case, moderators)

Unfortunately we truly are living in Orwellian times, certainly when it comes to free speech around trans issues. All it takes is a report from one or two people, for a meeting to be cancelled; an invite to be withdrawn; and post to be removed; a person to be banned or even sacked.

The reason is fear: of doing 'wrong' or of being seen to support 'transphobia'; after all many organisation have now received their 'training' on the issue. It is a collective madness that has taken hold; and what's more - the vast majority of people have not got a clue about much of the stuff going on in the name of trans rights.

Excellent point, Isatis. I think people who have never suffered genuine coercive control have trouble differentiating between the rights of a private website to control what content is on that website and the way being a victim of coercive control results in an abuser so deeply taking over

The fact is that sites such as Mumsnet are vulnerable to treats to target funders and advertisers if they are not seen to come down on perceived hate speech.

We have already seen this in action in other ways too. Women paid for an advertising banner which gave the dictionary definition of Woman, in Liverpool during the Labour party conference, only for it to be taken down by the agency who had only just commissioned it. This was due to reports of 'transphobia' - targeting the particular agency and making indirect threats to them about reputation etc

We are living in a climate of coercive control, whether or not you like the description of that or not. When a small number of people can exert such control over all manner of bodies and institutions, and cause them to act against their own instincts.

It has happened on occasion but posts are deleted on here for all sorts of reasons and it would be very useful to know why as i have seen posters saying it was for a personal attack or transphobia when it wasnt

I fully agree with this, perhaps even taking the transparency further and having a list of all deleted posts that's viewable (for example, by all users with more than a month's active history). Then it would be easier to judge whether or not FWR were being held to a higher standard (my disagreement is with the claim that the rules themselves are more exacting, I don't currently have the capabilities to analyse the content of deleted posts).

The fact is that sites such as Mumsnet are vulnerable to treats to target funders and advertisers if they are not seen to come down on perceived hate speech.

That has been an issue since before the printing press. If you want to be independent, you have to make sacrifices or be beholden to paying the bills. However, demanding (as opposed to requesting) that a site permit you to violate their rules or that their rules be changed is itself coercive (as the Ashers bakery case demonstrated).

or be beholden to paying the bills

*be beholden to the person paying the bills

It should also be noticed that coercive controllers often co-opt authorities to act as abuse proxies. And I believe that happens here on FWR.

Absolutely it does.

However, demanding (as opposed to requesting) that a site permit you to violate their rules or that their rules be changed is itself coercive

I hope you’re not suggesting those of us who find the moderations and rules unreasonable are doing this. That would be grossly unfair.

I fully agree with this

Plus i am really nosy and spend a lot of time thinking ‘fuuuuccck what did ????? say!’

So win win

However, demanding (as opposed to requesting) that a site permit you to violate their rules or that their rules be changed is itself coercive

good point

I hope you’re not suggesting those of us who find the moderations and rules unreasonable are doing this.

I'm not suggesting everyone here who finds the rules/moderation unreasonable is always doing this, I agree that would be grossly unfair.

Plus i am really nosy and spend a lot of time thinking ‘fuuuuccck what did ????? say!’

me too.

See my user name . The full quote is Power corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely
All the fucking power is back where it always was,With the men. Women have fought for their rights to be recognised as an individual Sex for years. Now it's being ripped away from them, you know ripped away from actual Natal born Women, the cunty kind of Women.by knobhead AGPs who decide that they are Women .
These Feminist boards are held to a much higher regulation than other boards. I will say this again *Human beings cannot change Sex. I'm so very pissed off that I'm unable to correctly sex someone.