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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wagamama and gender neutral toilets

550 replies

TulipsTulipsTulips · 31/05/2019 20:55

40% of wagamama’s toilets will be gender neutral by September. The last thing I want to do when I go out for a meal is share the facilities with men. We are different and deserve privacy! How have women’s interests become such a low priority?

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PCohle · 03/06/2019 18:16

Indeed and only a few pages back one of my comments was called stupid. And I am on the other side of your argument. So who's bloody stupid now?

I, deliberately, didn't mention one "side" or other of the discussion. My comment was aimed at anyone who thinks name calling will assist constructive discussion of complex and divisive social issues. Which apparently you do.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 03/06/2019 18:17

And you know what - the most odious ogres don’t actually want access to unisex spaces anyway - they want unfettered access to woman’s spaces.

LassOfFyvie · 03/06/2019 18:20

But it's up to those wanting to change the status quo to make a convincing argument. Something is being taken away from women, it's not the other way round

But I'm not trying to change it.

caringdenise009 · 03/06/2019 18:32

So does every lockable individual cubicle have a sanitary disposal bin at Wagamama? That must cost them a fortune.

SomeDyke · 03/06/2019 18:34

It's basic probability -- those slices of cheese actually are explaining, in effect, multiplication of probabilities. And we need to do is simple pairwise comparisons.

So, let's take 2 scenarios: (A) chap persuades women to plant camera, as compared to chap plants camera himself (B). In a mixed sex loo, the first one has a LOWER risk (to us) because everything else being equal, he has to persuade someone else to do his dirty work for him. So, A safer than B in a unisex loo scenario. This DOES NOT assume there aren't additional factors, such as problems doing the DIY, wandering in with power drill, pretending you're a contractor, putting your foot down the loo whilst trying to stand on the seat and trying to get the camera up in the ceiling void or whatever else our camera fixer is doing. We just need to assume they act equally for him and his female accomplice.

But unisex STILL says A safer than B. Female accomplice scenario less risk to us than chap plants camera himself.

Now make the loo female only. Makes scenario B (chap plants camera) EVEN RISKIER for the chap, hence SAFER for us. But doesn't do anything for scenario A, which was already safer for us. So, WHICHEVER thing he choose to do, do it himself, or try to persuade a female accomplice, having a female-only loo is STILL the safest for us. This is BASIC probability, because of course what you really need to do is not take just ONE offender and ONE occasion, but ALL would be offenders and ALL scenarios. And having a single-sex loo is SAFER on average, because it either doesn't effect the risk (female accomplice or even offender in unisex or single-sex loo), or makes it riskier for the offender (male in either unisex or single-sex loo).

The logic is actually simpler than even this -- the ONLY question, whatever the sex of the offender, is would letting males into a former female only loo magically protect us or not? And if so, HOW would that work.............

DecomposingComposers · 03/06/2019 18:57

So does every lockable individual cubicle have a sanitary disposal bin at Wagamama? That must cost them a fortune.

Yes they do. I'm sure they've factored cost into it.

Treefloof · 03/06/2019 19:05

I'm only defending my position of not being concerned about the change
Your unconcern comes across very badly. You seem intently concerned that men are allowed access to previously women only spaces.

Treefloof · 03/06/2019 19:08

So does every lockable individual cubicle have a sanitary disposal bin at Wagamama
Dunno but the period fetishists will have a ball.
www.reddit.com/r/itsafetish/comments/ajt3nr/mtf_period_fetishism/

hinely · 03/06/2019 19:15

I honestly don't think gender neutral loos will mean more hidden cameras.

Any male wanting to hide a camera for spying on women (or men for that matter) would have no problem entering a women's toilet. He'd just go at a time when he knew the loos to be quiet. Or get a job as a toilet cleaner.

I don't think there's any practical way to hide from these cameras - they can be the width of a needle and hidden anywhere. You can have a look around the loo but probably wont spot them if they're there. They don't bother me - the chance of there being one in a toilet is extremely low.

NunoGoncalves · 03/06/2019 19:22

Your unconcern comes across very badly. You seem intently concerned that men are allowed access to previously women only spaces.

I've made my position quite clear throughout the thread but it doesn't surprise me that you've chosen to interpret things in your own way.

paffuto · 03/06/2019 19:27

There's always been a risk that a pervert could sneak into a ladies loo and grab/assault a child/ woman. If men have free access to EVERY SINGLE TOILET without question, what do the ne'ersayers think will happen? The perverts must be wringing their hands with glee at these changes. We may as well walk around with loudspeakers "C'mon pervs, you can now enter ANY loo you want! No holds barred, we've lost them"

paffuto · 03/06/2019 19:34

This reply has been deleted

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LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 03/06/2019 19:39

Wilful. There’s another word.

paffuto · 03/06/2019 19:44

I suppose someone could be wilful and stupid?

ZebrasAreBras · 03/06/2019 19:46

Sorry, trying in vain not to use the word Stupid. But anyone who can't see the greatly increased risk to women and children must be stupid. There's no other word for it.

Yes, I'm afraid so. That some women opine that they "don't mind" is neither here nor there - unisex toilets are demonstrably less safe for women.

"Wilful" - yes, that's even worse. Because there's not caring about women's rights to female-only space for such things as toilets, getting changed etc - but "wilful" shows an intent - and can only be sinister.

I believe Edward Lord - who has just removed women's rights to a female only pond at Hampstead (despite there already being a mixed pool) - is "wilful".

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 03/06/2019 19:47

So why did I just read about a poor man who drowned in Hampstead men’s pool. How is there still a men’s pool then?

ZebrasAreBras · 03/06/2019 19:50

Oh there's still a men's pool. Because of course.

I hadn't heard someone drowned - how awful Sad

paffuto · 03/06/2019 19:54

I honestly don't think gender neutral loos will mean more hidden cameras. Any male wanting to hide a camera for spying on women (or men for that matter) would have no problem entering a women's toilet. He'd just go at a time when he knew the loos to be quiet. Or get a job as a toilet cleaner. And there you have it, that is the deterrent. With access to ANY loo at ANY time we have lost that deterrent, no matter how small!

ZebrasAreBras · 03/06/2019 20:07

And there you have it, that is the deterrent. With access to ANY loo at ANY time we have lost that deterrent, no matter how small!

I think it's a pretty big deterrent actually - men (as things currently are) can't easily gain access female only loos - they can be challenged, by women, or men if they're spotted going in. Women can call security and have them removed. There is a pretty strong social taboo on men going into women's toilets.

But obviously not in unisex loos - because men have a right to be there.

paffuto · 03/06/2019 20:12

Zebras I fear that if we do lose these deterrents (and of course you're right, it is a big deterrent) then we'll never get them back.

paffuto · 03/06/2019 20:15

And it's amazing how any woman wouldn't want to hang on to these deterrents. To not be bothered is weird.

ZebrasAreBras · 03/06/2019 20:20

Yes, even if a particular woman doesn't mind unisex, you'd wonder why she'd deny single sex loos for the many women who clearly want/need them.

DecomposingComposers · 03/06/2019 20:25

And it's amazing how any woman wouldn't want to hang on to these deterrents.

Because for me, these individual cubicles are actually beneficial. I'm not campaigning for them, I'm not saying that they are an improvement for all women, I'm merely addressing your question. Why don't I want old style cubicles - because they affect my ability to be able to go out, to go to work, to live a normal life. So, I do welcome them because they enable me to live a bit of a normal life.

If public opinion demands that they go back to old style single sex toilets then so be it. I will have to shrink my world back down again, but right now, they make my life that bit more tolerable.

ZebrasAreBras · 03/06/2019 20:27

A transcript of Julia Long's speech was deleted from here - misgendering is deleted - a poster was banned for a thoughtful post about pronouns (not actually specifically misgendering anyone) - I'd probably be deleted for naming it. Women are being denied the language to talk about their own rights, their biology, their oppression.

ZebrasAreBras · 03/06/2019 20:27

Sorry wrong thread!

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