'Inclusive education is non-negotiable'

[Gone2far]

A tweet from Jess Phillips (retweeted by my mp)
As soon as Westminster resumes I'll be calling on Department for Education to make clear to parents and to change their guidance that inclusive education is non negotiable. The fudge has allowed this crisis and without firm action it will spread. This must end next week.
I assume this is a reaction to what's happening to schools in her area, where parents are objecting to LGBT 'education'.
While I believe it's wrong that the government have made this the responsibility of individual schools, I strongly dislike her attitude of 'we know better than parents' in this and I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Will there be any time left to teach them English and Maths and all the other subjects?
Well of course there will, they're not just going to suddenly ditch English and Maths and everything else!

I notice you've only replied to the most flippant part of my post. What about answering all my other questions - the more serious ones, LimeKiwi?

Particularly this: What do you mean, exactly, when you say 'trans'?

These trans threads are utterly circular and bizarre.
You know, (well I assume you do really) know full well what trans means.
Trans - biological man or woman feeling they were born into the wrong sex so transition.
Still biologically the sex they started out as, they don't magically grow a womb for example, but can legally identify and live as the opposite sex.
You general you don't have to accept transpeople.
Others do accept them though.
Now no doubt there's a gotcha or word twist of what I actually just said.

Ah, you're looking for a whole lot of attention on this thread too I see. With pretty much exactly the same posts.

Michelle - I assume you missed the post where I answered? So I didn't "skirt"

Sorry you said you're skirting me, not the other way round. That'd explain how you missed my post then

You know, (well I assume you do really) know full well what trans means.

Well according to Stonewall, it means "transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman, trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois."

Trans - biological man or woman feeling they were born into the wrong sex so transition.

So according to you, it's just people who transition. I think that's probably transphobic, since you're excluding crossdressers like Eddie Izzard and 'Pips' Bunce from your definition. As well as all those gender free mumsnetters.

What do you mean by feeling they were born into the wrong sex? Is that like a disabled person feeling that they shouldn't have been born disabled? Or someone 5' tall who feels they should be 6'?

live as the opposite sex.

This is an interesting one. How do you do that? Remember it's 2019, not 1920. The only way you could really do that, is things like a man getting pregnant and giving birth, but you've realised that's impossible. I suppose a woman living like a man could learn to pee standing up. What else?

Oldcrone - that's just reeling off Stonewall though.
I asked what you think

I hate the way homosexuality and trans is conflated too. I’m not with the protesters in terms of being homophobic but do have some sympathy with the age of the children and a sense of indoctrination about it (ironic when many themselves are religious fundamentalists and do the same thing in terms of religion).

One of the books is about two male penguins who adopt a boy. This child like language about fluffy animals is where I find it a bit squeamish. As someone who doesn’t have a problem I’d much rather teachers actually tell children it’s ok for two men or women to each other rather than go on about crap like this. The other book was about a boy who liked to dress like a mermaid and you can see where that one came from.

The teacher heading it does seem to be on a bit of a person crusade as well rather than just following the usual guidance and going far further than what many other schools do which is a bit stupid (or perhaps deliberately provocative making a name for themselves) in a Muslim dominated school.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48351401

Returning to the OP it's the denial of science which really grates. No, human beings are not jelly babies on a spectrum from barbie to GI Joe. No, humans cannot change sex. No, there are no such things as lady brains. No, people who are intersex are not there to be appropriated into someone else's quasi religious cult. No, clown fish may be sequential hermaphrodites but that has absolutely fuck all to do with mammalian reproduction.

By all means encourage tolerance towards other people's beliefs. If thinking the earth is flat helps them get through the day, far be it from me to kick that psychological crutch out from under them. Just don't expect the rest of us to believe the earth is flat. And certainly don't use the fact that teachers in school carry authority to teach children that the earth is flat.

I asked what you think

Did you? I must have missed that. What I think about what, exactly?

And can you answer any of my questions in my last post? Or are they too hard?

Oldcrone as in what do you think trans is, as you just reeled off Stonewall and not what you yourself think.

I didn't realise you'd asked me that (and I still can't see where you did). I'm not an authority on this, though, and I'm not sure my definition (if I had one) would be important.

You said: I honestly can't see a problem with letting children know it's OK to be gay or trans. So I wondered what your definition was, because it's important to know what you're saying is OK. I gave you Stonewall's very broad definition as a starting point, to see if that was what you meant, or if you had a different or narrower definition of what you thought should be taught to children.

I definitely get a proselytizing vibe about this guy who himself is gay and seems to have swallowed the Stonewall handbook. I also don’t think it’s about just teaching the curriculum and it comes off as him saying to himself well I’m going to teach those Muslim kids right.

I don’t know why I find the dolphin thing so uncomfortable but just get a sense of....I don’t know dishonesty and being underhand. If the kids aren’t old enough to actually teach these things in plain language then perhaps they should wait until later.

It’s far more truthful to talk about adult / older people being in same sex relationships rather than resort to pandas etc (ok the parents at this school probably wouldn’t like it still but I’d prefer that personally)

Oldcrone - OK, maybe I wasn't clear in asking. I'll ask now again then, what do you think trans is?

Well it's gone to the high court now...

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/news/article/424/andertonparkkprimaryschoollprotestshighhcourtawardssinteriminjunction?utmmsource=Facebook&utmmedium=social&utmmcampaign=SocialSignIn

LimeKiwi
You're the one who thinks children should be taught about 'trans' in school. Why are you asking me for a definition? If you don't know what it is, why are you so sure that it's suitable for teaching to children?

You asked me so I answered with what I thought.
You still won't say what you think though, why?

Genuinely asking as wanted to know what your definition was seeing as we're asking each other questions.
Yes I think it's OK to teach children that it's OK to be "different", OK to be you.
I'd rather that than have them thinking they have to live as someone else not true to them to conform to make society "happy."
Who are we to say what's normal or not?
There's so much we don't know fully yet

LimeKiwi
I don't have my own personal definition of what 'trans' is, because I'm not pushing it as a concept. When other people introduce it into a discussion, I have to know what their definition is, so that I can understand their argument.

For example, your definition seems not to include non-binary people and crossdressers, but Stonewall's does. Many men crossdress for fetishistic purposes, which I don't think is an appropriate thing to teach primary school children about, so it's important to know if you include them in your definition of 'trans', since you want children to be taught about 'trans'.

Although if you want my opinion about 'trans', LimeKiwi, I think it is mainly about reinforcing gender stereotypes, it is also sometimes about sexual fetish, and it is sometimes about a delusional belief that the body is 'wrong'. It can also be a sort of quasi-religious belief about gendered souls which sometimes end up in the 'wrong' body.

I think that it is a regressive notion (sex-role stereotypes are outdated), and it is sexist and misogynistic in the notion that women somehow identify with all the sexist shit which has always been associated with being a woman. There is also a lot of homophobia inherent in trans ideology - a gay man who transitions to become a 'transwoman' becomes straight by doing so - making it a type of conversion therapy.

I'd rather that than have them thinking they have to live as someone else not true to them to conform to make society "happy."

You do realise that this is what transgenderism is, don't you? A need to change their bodies to conform to a stereotype. A feminine boy can't just be a feminine boy, he has to become a 'transgirl'.

Trans (or whatever since nobody seems to be able agree with each other as to what it is) can identify as anything they want as far as I’m concerned. Literally anything. They can choose their own race or age. They can identify as their species of choice or even an inanimate object. Just don’t expect everyone else to go along with your fantasy or humour you. Identify as a fox if you want but I’ll still be calling the police if you kill my chickens and shit in my garden

They can choose their own race or age
No, don't think that's ever been an accepted trans definition at all.
Neither's identifying as another species really.

So why on earth should we even begin to accept that a man is a woman?

Preposterous!

A man is not a woman.

A boy is not a girl.