Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?

[theOtherPamAyres]

I know that Mumsnet moderators are hot on keeping respectful debate and for that reason does not allow misgendering, certain terms, and the like. It's their site and they make the rules and I respect that. This topic isn't about Mumsnet, it's about the growing confidence of feminists to refuse to use the terms and language of gender.

Karen Ingala Smith, speaking to the Womens Select Committee, showed how it could be done. As a result of the clarity of her language, she was able to cut through the nonsense and make her points forcefully. In contrast, Janet from Womens Aid, with her convoluted language about gender, sounded confused and muddle-headed.

When we are forced to use words like 'transwoman' and 'she' - for fear of prosecution, civil actions, job losses, imprisonment for contempt of court, exclusion, abuse and physical assaults - we have helped to normalise transgenderism. In effect, we are saying that a man can be a woman.

I believe that we can no longer support Trans Rights by default, by caving in and going with the flow. At some stage we have to assert the right to use our own terms - because we can't wait for legal precedents and government reviews. The more refusniks and recusants there are, the more confidence will grow.

What tips and tricks of language did you start using when you could no longer kowtow to the demand for obedience?
How did you write or speak about people/men/women who identify as trans? (Did you see what I did there?)

The point regarding the policy on “misgendering” making the board less accessible to people with autism and other communication difficulties is a serious one demanding a serious answer.
Come on HQ. Or don’t you care about your members with ASD?

I did wonder who the federal population was!

After many years on internet discussion boards, I've noticed that lots of people don't understand the mechanics of how an analogy works.

RoyalCorgi Its so common & utterly frustrating to see because it prompts an uneccessary emotional response.

Re: alternative vocabulary:

taking the cue from language used that is already accepted: cross-sex hormones:

Misgender becomes true sex / true sexed

Transition becomes cross sex / cross sexed

Non-Binary becomes No sex

Gender Recognition Certificate becomes Cross sex certificate

Gender Reassignment becomes Cross sex

Transwoman or man becomes cross sexer

Transgender becomes cross sexer

To Dead-name: true name

Or don’t you care about your members with ASD?

I’m sure they care, but they don’t listen. I’ve made several reports and general complaints about ableism towards the autism community and I’m sorry to say, I don’t feel listened to or understood.

I think MN needs to try and recruit more people from the ASD community, their parents and friends. I agree there is goodwill but they just don’t get it. Totally obtuse, very often.

That's a very good idea. I don't think some people understand how much some of MNs policies on wording in trans discussions shit all over neurodiverse women.

The point regarding the policy on “misgendering” making the board less accessible to people with autism and other communication difficulties is a serious one demanding a serious answer.

Also less accessible to other large population groups with processing challenges: so that will be just to name a few of the better known ones, people with Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, people with ME and other chronic illnesses, people with mental health challenges, and people living with Alzheimers. Many of whom access this board for support, education and for the social participation and can be found actively involved across MN.

Non-Binary becomes No sex

Doesn't work because they still have a sex.

Is there really any need for the term non-binary anyway? Sex is binary: male/female. So non-binary cannot apply to it. If non-binary describes behaviour and conforming to stereotypes, then we're all non-binary, therefore it is redundant.

Is there really any need for the term non-binary anyway?

This has my vote. Let's do away with it completely. It is nonsense.

I hadn't thought of some of those groups myself Michelle. Thank you for your useful post.

Non-Binary becomes No sex

Non binary means anything and nothing.
Its access all areas to anyone to decides to assert it.
It is much more potentially disruptive than is widely realised.

Re: non-binary:

It is much more potentially disruptive than is widely realised.

I agree ... it is utter nonsense [literally!] and it is being used to demand access to all areas at any time. It is extremely abusive.

Is there really any need for the term non-binary anyway?

How else is one supposed to signal that one’s decision to have short hair or wear practical, non-flouncy clothing, for example, is special, as opposed to mundane snd personal preference? I had very short hair in my early twenties as I swam almost daily and the chlorine left me looking like Worzel Gummidge if I grew it out. I also favoured flat shoes and practical, comfy, androgynous clothing (in line with the grunge fashions of the day), due to long walks either into uni or my first couple of jobs. I was frequently addressed as ‘sir’ in shops and bars (misgendered in today’s parlance). However, my choice was mundane and practicality-focussed. These days I suspect I’d need to be frantically handwaving and telling everyone I was cis so as not to be lumped under the trans umbrella. The whole NB designation is the one I find most puzzling, as about 75% of my female friends in the 90s eschewed dolly bird attire in favour of practical, grungey clothing and most of us loathed being pigeon-holed or defined because of our sex. We spent most of our teens and twenties railing against the constraints of gender. It didn’t make us special. It made us normal. Who wants to be defined, limited and boxed in by other people?

It is all just attention seeking.

people with Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, people with ME and other chronic illnesses, people with mental health challenges, and people living with Alzheimers.

Chipping in to nod and add anyone recovering from cognitive injuries including TBIs or post-surgery, in the midst of chemofog, or having problems in line with B12 deficiency.

There are lots of people who are going to find it easier not to communicate for fear of inadvertent consequences. And that's not going to have any impact on their wellbeing or ability to participate in everyday or social activities, none at all.

I also do sympathise for the (albeit fairly small) gender dysphoric / trans person who is not pushing it in others faces. Just wants to get on with regular life with their friends and family and would in fact rather go into the disabled toilet, so as not to bother anyone (I know someone like this).

I feel like this as well. As I've seen many places are now making the accessible toilet into a gender neutral toilet it's not inconveniencing people with a disability since the toilet is for all and the numbers using it will still be incredibly small. Accessible toilets are also already gender neutral since they are single person use and so don't need to be designated male or female.

I didn't see Barracker's original post but I have read her post on Medium. It's well written and prompts food for thought whilst not dictating to those of us who are supportive of the wider trans movement. Well done Barracker

There are lots of people who are going to find it easier not to communicate for fear of inadvertent consequences

So this coercion will continue ever more.

(Non-Binary)It is much more potentially disruptive than is widely realised

A former SNP politican described himself as trans because he was non-binary. (They, them, their) Miley Cyrus and her husband, councillors, some LGBT allies etc say that are trans because they are non-binary.

If we keep using the word 'non-binary' we are accepting the idea that you are neither male nor female.

We are undermining our case that there are two sexes.

We are giving a helping hand to Queer Theory bullsugar.

We are being played.

Instead of non-binary (which sounds oh so scientific), I thought of using 'no-sex' or 'no-specific-sex'. Other suggestions welcome.

Translate true facts from the drug-induced 'repeat after me' speech

"I am trans because I am non-binary and you will refer to me as they or them"
(male with beard, male pattern baldness, male forename, and sparkly pink wellingtons)

"I am trans because I have no specific sex and you will ....etc"

Those who aren't steeped in this subject might not see anything difficult with the first. They would rear up and question the second.

I've only just discovered that I have ASD, which explains why lying has always been so difficult for me. I also have dyspraxia. I'm now on the waiting list for a detailed assessment of my ASD, as well as seeing the occupational health team and a psychiatrist for a reassessment of the medication I take for depression and anxiety.

I have a hard time coping with having to lie about the sex someone else is but I keep struggling. Being here discussing the issues is more important than any temporary uneasiness.

Chipping in to nod and add anyone recovering from cognitive injuries including TBIs or post-surgery, in the midst of chemofog, or having problems in line with B12 deficiency.

People with limited literacy skills and those for whom English is not their first language will also be impacted.

Its not simply the cognitive dissonance of being required to use the opposite sex pronouns but also using 'they' as a singular ponoun and as more people choose made up ones then constructing sentences becomes increasingly difficult.

I no longer have chemo brain and have a degree in English and cannot communicate effectively or fluently using ae/aer/aers/aerself
fae/faer/faers/faerself, vi/ver/vis/vis/verself etc

It is inaccessible to many people within society.

This is not how language evolves.
Its also completely unworkable & discriminatory as only a few people will have their pronouns publicised, policed and monitored. As many are gender fluid, how is one to know what a person's current pronouns are?

Many on FWR have been diligently using they/their/them pronouns for Edward Lord (City of London Corporation) who claims a 'non-binary identity'. Lord is clearly male, a prominant member of the brotherhood of Freemasons & yesterday I read on his blog that he accepts both they/their/them & he/him/his pronouns
edwardlord.org/about/

So in the interests of accessibility Im not using made up pronouns anymore. An individual is not plural so no more they/their/them!

uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/

Instead of non-binary (which sounds oh so scientific), I thought of using 'no-sex' or 'no-specific-sex'. Other suggestions welcome

Ignoring it.
It means nothing.

Everyone is sexed.
Its narcissism.

I agree there is goodwill but they just don’t get it. Totally obtuse, very often.

It's the same with patterns of coercive control. Lots of willingness to understand it in a domestic/household context and lots of meaning well - but the exact same patterns in an online space and the ears suddenly become made of tin. I don't understand it. I love MNHQ but I wish they could do better on this.