Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?

[theOtherPamAyres]

I know that Mumsnet moderators are hot on keeping respectful debate and for that reason does not allow misgendering, certain terms, and the like. It's their site and they make the rules and I respect that. This topic isn't about Mumsnet, it's about the growing confidence of feminists to refuse to use the terms and language of gender.

Karen Ingala Smith, speaking to the Womens Select Committee, showed how it could be done. As a result of the clarity of her language, she was able to cut through the nonsense and make her points forcefully. In contrast, Janet from Womens Aid, with her convoluted language about gender, sounded confused and muddle-headed.

When we are forced to use words like 'transwoman' and 'she' - for fear of prosecution, civil actions, job losses, imprisonment for contempt of court, exclusion, abuse and physical assaults - we have helped to normalise transgenderism. In effect, we are saying that a man can be a woman.

I believe that we can no longer support Trans Rights by default, by caving in and going with the flow. At some stage we have to assert the right to use our own terms - because we can't wait for legal precedents and government reviews. The more refusniks and recusants there are, the more confidence will grow.

What tips and tricks of language did you start using when you could no longer kowtow to the demand for obedience?
How did you write or speak about people/men/women who identify as trans? (Did you see what I did there?)

The argument can be that transgenderism is the new gay in that the past generation couldn't bring themselves around to be liberal enough to accept gay people have a right.

In essence, you could argue that by being against trans people in these situations you are repeating that sentiment.

I don't agree, because gay people do not potentially put us in danger by invading single sex spaces.

I'm conflicted in many ways as I feel if someone does want to be referred to she that's their right on the choice of words used but when it comes to toilets, changing rooms and sport their biological gender should be what is the deciding factor.

I also do sympathise for the (albeit fairly small) gender dysphoric / trans person who is not pushing it in others faces. Just wants to get on with regular life with their friends and family and would in fact rather go into the disabled toilet, so as not to bother anyone (I know someone like this).

I have no problem using the word transwoman because it indicates a beyond or differentness than just a woman. I do not call trans women women as a single word though.

I think the biggest problem is people feeling they have to fit into a stereotype of man or woman; masculine or feminine; submissive or dominant; artistic or concrete. Instead of being happy to be a female who is quite strong willed who equally loves martial arts, baking, surfing and the colour pink- we are made to feel we have to be what we are assigned to. I feel that many trans persons are looking for that fix of fitting in with their interests.

The biggest problem i have with some trans people is the near fetishism their new appearance takes. They often act an extreme of their non biological gender. As if a trans woman wants to be dominated and patronised and as if a trans man wants to be dictorial and an adrenaline junkie. It's almost like a caricature.

If you really desire to be the opposite sex (well let's say opposite gender) surely you'd just want to be a normal person. So trans women with jeans, basic t shirt and minimal makeup. But often it's the extreme and it is that which doesn't sit right with me.

I am progressive and tolerant. I have not nor would not be hateful to someone who genuinely felt their body was wrong for them. I just don't like how changing the body helps especially when these feelings are only just recent. Instead, psychological outlooks and self esteem and assertiveness is so important.

Sorry if that was a bit of an essay.

I am desperate for MNHQ to decide to allow posters to use correct pronouns and known names or aliases for all people.

The speed with which society will reverse the madness when we're brave enough to hear 'he' 'man' 'John' in relation to discussions of who exactly is demanding access to little girls and women. It will knock socks off.

The reason pronouns matter isn't because it spares hurty feelings. There's no worth in that compelled 'she' when you know the speaker doesn't mean it. No, the reason pronouns are such a massive deal is because female pronouns act like rohypnol. They lower inhibitions, make you feel safer, lessen defences.

"She's sad she can't join the girls in the changing rooms"
Emotional response = aw, why are the girls being mean?
"He's sad he can't join the girls in the changing rooms"
Emotional response =bolt the door NOW girls, and call for help.

"The girls don't want to undress in front of Jane"
"The girls don't want to undress in front of David"

Words change perceptions.
Pronouns can be rohypnol.
I owe it to women and girls to use language that primes their alertness, keeps them aware.

Barracker - The rohypnol metaphor is very powerful. I hadn't thought of it that way before. A compelling post. Thank you.

Spot on, Barracker.

Brava, Barracker! Extremely pertinent insight.

Spot on. What a powerful metaphor. Female pronouns change perceptions profoundly. I thought as much when I read a piece about Aimee Challenor and 'her' father last year.

There are measurable, meaningful differences in female and male behaviour (whether due to innate differences or socialisation). An average person will have completely different reactions to 'Woman attacks stranger in street' than to 'Man attacks stranger in street.'

How the media uses language on the issue has been changing gradually over the last year. There is less he/she and more gender-avoiding language. I think style-guides/reporting guidelines would have to be updated to see any real step change.

Interesting that so many of us avoid using any pronoun, or use the gender-neutral 'they' when referring to transwomen, yet use the masculine pronoun when referring to transmen. I wonder whether Barracker's Rohypnol analogy is at work here, unconsciously and instinctively.

Good grief. What's going on? Why is everyone being deleted?

We've had tons of discussions about the perception of pronoun usage. That's not against guidelines.

What's happened to Barracker. Is she suspended?

@mnhq ?

Wow.

Must remember the rohypnol metaphor.

Thanks Barracker
I will look into the Rohypnol analogy.

Always handy to have good analogies and words at our disposal.

Women and Girls have historically learnt to be very adept with words.

This is one of our strengths and they know it.

rohypnol metaphor.

This appears to be the magic phrase.

I think the answer to the OP is a resounding No.

Incidently, with some people we can now call them male, as they outed themselves as male so that's ok yes? After all we can't override their own self identification as male.

Excellent post barracker, will remember that one.

Damn. I missed baracker's post. Dying to know what this rohypnol business is all about.

I'm guessing it's something we're not allowed to speak of/refer to/think about...

Rohypnol metaphor ?

Are we deleting metaphors now ? I am sorry that post was censored before I could see it.

Could a kind soul pm me please ?

I'm guessing it's something we're not allowed to speak of/refer to/think about..

People trying to take advantage don't usually point out that they have put rohypnol in your drink.

Hence the urgent TRA/MRA need to keep Barracker quiet when she pointed it out the analogy.

Rohypnol metaphor?

Apologies on my behalf it was an analogy, not a metaphor.

An analogy as in the changing of language lowering boundaries the same was that rohypnol lowers them. My bad. Not a metaphor.

Interesting, sackrifice

I use the 'they' pronoun. I'm O.K with that. And rather than automatically using pronouns as a form of shorthand, I've found it easier and clearer to use the longer format which involves use of the given name - even if it can feel long winded.

For example:

"Billy Jean says they felt quite happy with the result; and they looked forward to repeat performances. Billy Jean would now like to be known as Billy Goat.

We wish them the best of luck!"

I screenshotted part of Barracker's brilliant post but I guess if I put it up.here I'll just get deleted?