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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Can we stop being obedient soon, or will this coercion continue for evermore?

652 replies

theOtherPamAyres · 25/05/2019 23:14

I know that Mumsnet moderators are hot on keeping respectful debate and for that reason does not allow misgendering, certain terms, and the like. It's their site and they make the rules and I respect that. This topic isn't about Mumsnet, it's about the growing confidence of feminists to refuse to use the terms and language of gender.

Karen Ingala Smith, speaking to the Womens Select Committee, showed how it could be done. As a result of the clarity of her language, she was able to cut through the nonsense and make her points forcefully. In contrast, Janet from Womens Aid, with her convoluted language about gender, sounded confused and muddle-headed.

When we are forced to use words like 'transwoman' and 'she' - for fear of prosecution, civil actions, job losses, imprisonment for contempt of court, exclusion, abuse and physical assaults - we have helped to normalise transgenderism. In effect, we are saying that a man can be a woman.

I believe that we can no longer support Trans Rights by default, by caving in and going with the flow. At some stage we have to assert the right to use our own terms - because we can't wait for legal precedents and government reviews. The more refusniks and recusants there are, the more confidence will grow.

What tips and tricks of language did you start using when you could no longer kowtow to the demand for obedience?
How did you write or speak about people/men/women who identify as trans? (Did you see what I did there?)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
SirVixofVixHall · 26/05/2019 16:26

Can’t argue with Barracker, so silence her instead. Angry

pinchpoint · 26/05/2019 16:31

Hmmm. Banning a user for political speech. Not good. Barracker has been a Bad Feminist, getting at truths which are intolerably uncomfortable for some. Flowers for her.

"I find it fascinating that whoever feels motivated to reports posts such as Barracker's seem to be so driven by narcisstic outrage/outrage on behalf of others/a need to control other's thoughts and language that they never seem to pause and reflect on that well-known Streisand effect."

This. The narcissistic bullies are policing the boundaries of what we can say here. However, their efforts have backfired. I doubt any of the MN users who have posted on or read this thread, or the thousands of lurkers - journalists included - who come to find out what's fresh with the feminist resistance, will forget the rohypnol analogy...

The unsayable idea/association is of M/TRAs compelling speech with any substance which, when ingested, lowers a person's boundaries, rendering them more vulnerable to suggestion, to going along with the suggester's agenda - however harmful it is to them and those in their care.

That's the aim and dynamic of transgender ideology, in a nutshell. A mass grooming project which benefits the powerful (GBTQ lobbying organisations, pharmaceutical companies, misguided and unscrupulous endocrinologists and psychologists etc.) at the expense of women and children. They want what they want, and will use undemocratic and contemptible means to get it.

If this is not the M/TRAs ultimate aim, how else do we explain their behaviour? At any point in the last couple of years, they could have switched tack and campaigned for third spaces, for trans-specific services where appropriate (e.g. rape crisis centres), for proper mental health support which would avoid their bodies becoming medical 'problems'...hell, they could even have listened to their critics, read some books not on the queer reading list, and explored what the the radical feminist analysis of patriarchy offered them. But no. They continue to insist that we play along - in silence - as they erode our boundaries, our language.

That they haven't changed direction in the face of mass opposition from ordinary women tells us everything. Presumably some TRAs still think there is life in their campaign, whereas the facts point towards a haemorrhaging of hearts and minds at a fearsome rate. They have done - I hope (fingers crossed) - as much damage as they're capable of. The repair works are underway.

Always worth restating, we are not having it. We never were. Everything M/TRAs have achieved by way of money, propaganda, stealth and dishonesty we can undo, given time. And we will. Because it's the right thing to do. Because we would go to great lengths to protect our children from their terrible, selfish, stupid, misogynistic ideas. And because we value ourselves enough to know when to resist.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 26/05/2019 16:35

At any point in the last couple of years, they could have switched tack and campaigned for third spaces, for trans-specific services where appropriate (e.g. rape crisis centres), for proper mental health support which would avoid their bodies becoming medical 'problems'...

Look at how powerful & we’ll -funded Stonewall are. They could have done this in a heartbeat. But they chose not to.

LangCleg · 26/05/2019 16:43

The narcissistic bullies are policing the boundaries of what we can say here.

Yes. External coercive control. Another reminder of the Walking on Eggshells video that MN co-produced.

Time to suggest Freedom Programme training for the mod team again?

It could really help an understanding of the dynamics involved here.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 26/05/2019 16:44

I think Freedom Programme training for the mods is an excellent idea, Lang.

R0wantrees · 26/05/2019 16:49

Vice article by Eve Livingston
Dec 6 2018
'How an Online Forum for Moms Became a Toxic Hotbed of Transphobia'
(extract)
Since 2016, Mumsnet—specifically its Feminism board—has increasingly found itself on the receiving end of criticism from trans people and their allies. “When I started using Twitter and engaging in the trans sphere in mid-2017, Mumsnet was constantly referenced both on my timeline and in DMs,” says Joss Prior, a trans woman who is part of a sizable trans community that monitors and discusses Mumsnet regularly. “The whole of the Feminism board was like a spectre hanging over the daily trans discourse.” (continues)

In March of this year, Mumsnet was used to organize against Girlguiding’s trans-inclusive membership policy in collaboration with anti-self identification campaign group Fair Play For Women. Users also responded to Gender Recognition Act proposals that would allow trans people to self-identify with protests such as Man Friday, a campaign that encourages cis women “identify as men on Fridays" and partake in male behaviours like “manspreading and mansplaining” or to access single sex male spaces such as changing rooms, swimming facilities, or sports clubs.

“It’s a core group of a few hundred hardcore trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs), a tiny percentage of overall users,” says Christine, the mother of a trans child and also part of the network that regularly monitors Mumsnet. (Christine’s name has been changed for privacy reasons.) “Yet the Feminism board is just 90 percent discussions about trans people on any given day.” (continues)
www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

LangCleg · 26/05/2019 16:50

It's been suggested many times over the years but they've always said that they don't need it, sadly.

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 26/05/2019 16:50

A highly intelligent woman referencing accepted social science theory about the impact of compelled speech on people's capacity to think critically and resist, discussed in the context of a challenge to women's rights and safety, is exactly in the spirit of mumsnet

Absolutely agree. I'm sure mumsnet will reconsider. We seem to have lost so many intelligent and interesting women from this board. It's a shame we are so attacked and that the truth is so terrifying for some people.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 26/05/2019 16:53

a sizable trans community that monitors and discusses Mumsnet regularly.

Under His Eye.

R0wantrees · 26/05/2019 16:54

Yes. External coercive control. Another reminder of the Walking on Eggshells video that MN co-produced.
It could really help an understanding of the dynamics involved here.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Michelleoftheresistance · 26/05/2019 16:57

External coercive control

The fact that the reporting on this board is openly led by 'members' who never post, never participate on MN, merely stalk the boards to police women talking here because of some self appointed sense of superiority and then brag about this on Twitter is in itself extremely creepy. On what other MN board are men permitted to stalk and police women?

HQ please re consider this decision.

mononokeswolf · 26/05/2019 16:58

Thanks* Barraker*

Floisme · 26/05/2019 17:01

I doubt any of the MN users who have posted on or read this thread, or the thousands of lurkers - journalists included - who come to find out what's fresh with the feminist resistance, will forget the rohypnol analogy...
Nope. And I would have probably nodded at Barracker's post, thought, 'that's interesting' and forgotten all about it by now. Really not a smart move by the monitors. Not smart at all.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 26/05/2019 17:02

I think the rohypnol analogy is well & truly embedded in people’s minds now.

7Days · 26/05/2019 17:02

Banning Barracker?

Not on, MNHQ.

DoxxedFox · 26/05/2019 17:07

Bullying and silencing are so engrained with this debate every. Single. Time. The debate echoes with tactics of male violence off every wall and lets be honest, there’s a reason for that.

HeronLanyon · 26/05/2019 17:11

Did you say rohypnol.
Mn please reconsider. The post was thought provoking and absolutely in the spirit of mumsnet surely ? If not here then where? If not us then who?

S1naidSucks · 26/05/2019 17:11

This is what happens when you go against the patriarchy.

There’s nothing to stop the posters that have screen shot Barracker’s post from sending it directly to other members, so if someone wouldn’t mind sending me, I’d be very grateful. Actually spread it far and wide by PMs, obviously to those who want it. I want to memorise it for further discussions in RL.

CodenameVillanelle · 26/05/2019 17:18

I doubt it will be long before it's on twitter if it's not already

ScrimshawTheSecond · 26/05/2019 17:18

Banning?! That's rather an extreme reaction, isn't it?

BettyFloop · 26/05/2019 17:18

I'd appreciate a copy of the screenshot of Barraker's post for use IRL too if someone could PM it to me please.

I also think Barraker should be reinstated immediately and with a full apology for the heavy handed response.

Barracker Flowers

justju · 26/05/2019 17:18

What the hell?

Is it the woke interns on at the weekend?

arranbubonicplague · 26/05/2019 17:21

I doubt it will be long before it's on twitter if it's not already

I have a strong interest in compelled speech in line with the Levy quotation that's already been posted and the well known writings of Arendt and Orwell.

If somebody does have a Twitter link to it when it's been posted, that would be helpful.

terryleather · 26/05/2019 17:28

The fact that the reporting on this board is openly led by 'members' who never post, never participate on MN, merely stalk the boards to police women talking here because of some self appointed sense of superiority and then brag about this on Twitter is in itself extremely creepy. On what other MN board are men permitted to stalk and police women?

This bears repeating over and over again.

Under His Eye indeed.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 26/05/2019 17:29

Under His Eye indeed.

Noting, incidentally, that the pronoun ‘his’ here is part of a literary quote.