Karen Ingala Smith in Parliament now on single sex refuges

[Anlaf]

She's excellent, as i think is Jess Philips. Karen's talking v movingly of the challenges in offering women only refuge services, the two boroughs where her organisation has had pushback already for not being inclusive enough, and in assessing male-born people for risk in accessing female services

Watch live:

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0d07ff13-636e-4b51-a946-2877e583dc4c

Lots of handwaving from one Maria Miller

Diana sounds like she would be happier running a mixed sex refuge

Diana is a volunteer

The refuge Diana volunteers at is mixed sex-it admits males who identify as trans into the women’s refuge

Diana mentions during the hearing that Diana has a ‘trans history’

from December 2018:

two pieces of important writing which are pertinent to this thread and exemplify the heart of the issue:

Twitter thread by Jammersminde February 2018:
"I often talk about my experiences of Domestic Abuse/Violence, of being in refuge with my child, my sense of safety and security when I try to engage with TRAs. I don’t do it to gain sympathy or to play victim olympics, but it goes directly to why I am so concerned not
only about the proposed changes to the GRA but also increasingly about all the companies and services who are choosing to ignore the sex based rights women have under the EA.

Because of this, I have been accused of using my child to “score points”, being an “abusive mum” bringing my child up to hate and fear men, being transphobic, not giving a damn about abused TW, scare mongering etc etc.

None of which is true.

In return I have repeatedly explained why women and children like us (not only us of course) need guaranteed male free spaces

I have gone into more detail about our trauma, ptsd etc both here and on FB than I really wanted, as I desperately hoped that it would make at least one person understand and see that needing our female only spaces doesn’t come from transphobia. I have made clear that I would always support trans rights but that we have to find a way for it to work for everyone, not just the minority. I have tried to stay calm in the face of pure misogyny, aggression and disregard to OUR rights to feel safe, secure and comfortable.

I have been ridiculed, called names sneered at and told my child should learn to share and get over his transphobia. This has been in response to me explaining how even a male voice would see him shaking and crying with fear when we first arrived in refuge.

Grown men have told me that my then 7 year old traumatised child should get over himself! I have been repeatedly told that a TWs NEED to work in a refuge shouldnt override the residents NEED to keywork with women only and have a women only environment.

I am being told that all the issues there already is in mixed sex services is our problem to deal with and if it means we can’t use them, well I deserve that because I’m a bigot.

I never intended to mention that we were in refuge. It’s a very painful thing to acknowledge to yourself and even harder to speak about, but I made the choice to do so hoping, as I said above, that explaining what the effect of male abuse has on women and children and how self ID and the continuous withdrawal of our sex based needs will have a huge impact. Not just for us, but for all the women and children who for whatever reason need/want to know that there are places which are for females only.

So today someone said that I was lying about it all. Thankfully I didn’t see it, but the person who said it was a TW who referenced an earlier convo where again I had tried so hard to convey my concerns and fears. Being accused of lying about this was probably my last straw. I don’t like the peak trans # as I know amazing TW so I won’t use it, but yes, today is the day where I just can’t try any more.

It took me a long time to admit my concerns about the ever increasing demands coming from the TRAs to myself, even longer to voice them quietly. I came to Twitter in November to reassure myself that it couldn’t be as bad as I imagined and as some people told me, but it’s worse, it’s horrifyingly worse.

The threats of violence, the delight found when someone was physically hurt, seeing DV action groups supporting male on female violence, the hate filled loathing of anyone who asks the slightest question, the refusal to consider women and children in all this.

The posturing, the sneering, the intimidation.

Do you know what it reminds me of? 10 years of hell. 10 years of belittling, gaslighting, humiliation, threats. I won’t give the info on the physical stuff, that’s mine.

Pure male misogyny, violence, hatred of women. And all this from people who say they feel like me...a woman"

twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/966488560374337536

& then this recent article
'Trans women should be allowed in women’s shelters – here’s why'
by ESTHER BETTS
03 DEC 2018
www.thearticle.com/trans-women-should-be-allowed-in-womens-shelters-heres-why/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3433667-I-was-one-of-the-transactivists-on-the-channel-4-documentary-I-regret-what-I-did-this-is-why

This is coercive-control:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Thank you @Anlaf for doing a who’s who for me! In the little bit I saw, Karen was good. Making specific points. Janet waffled. Sarah Campion was not direct enough for me, too much pussyfooting about instead of just addressing issues head on. Reminded me of my voluntary sector days, where people spoke for ages, but said nothing.

Is it the same Diana James that's pictured half way through this article?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48249330

If you want to know why Woman's Aid are lost, listen to this short segment where the head of membership starts off well and then...

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/0d07ff13-636e-4b51-a946-2877e583dc4c?in=11:29:02

JM "When we set up women only services, we weren't only basing those services on biology..."

JM "I just think it is more complicated than saying these are single sex services, and we're determining that sex on the biology that someone is born with"

KIS: For good reason though!... it's males that are comitting that violence.. it's not based on some willy nilly conception of biology, it's about keeping women safe.

Who recently tweeted this?

twitter.com/dianalouisej/status/1130560654887260160

reckon so, Ewe

I think she's too loyal to the left/ the labour party to peak. But we'll see...

It only takes one spark of realisation for the rose tinted specs to fall off. How many people on this very board realised they were supporting the left due to brand loyalty rather than actually agreeing with their politics?

It's this Diana James - in the bio it says trans.

Sorry I was reading the thread and didn't see the most recent cross-post.

i switched it off in a rage when i heard two of the panel struggling to define what a woman is and 'who gets to define...'

karen was great though-

Why does Janet keep giggling? How is this in any way a funny thing to talk about?

Why are they talking about BME women as if BME women subsector of Women's Refuges is on a par with allowing male bodies into them?! SO infuriating and racist!!

Why are they talking about BME women as if BME women subsector of Women's Refuges is on a par with allowing male bodies into them?! SO infuriating and racist!!

It is.
Its commonly used by those espousing pomo queer theory/TRA propaganda/appropriating women's experiences.

Boils down to 'people who won't obey should be denied services and excluded as a punishment'. It's being danced all around, but this is in fact what is being mooted. Just spot the love and inclusion and intersectionality and tolerance and equality going on in that bit of fascism.

Racist: If BME women are allowed in women's services it goes to show that men should be allowed in too. And racist terms of abuse are fine to use against women if they stand up for women's rights. And people from religions and cultures that preclude sharing spaces with males regardless of how they identify should either abandon their religion and culture or accept they deserve all they get.

Disablist: those not able to manage the cognitive distortions and social lies involved, who need single sex carers for situations of privacy and dignity and who need private spaces for toileting etc because of need don't matter. People not on message don't deserve provision, services or consideration. Rape and sexual assault survivors, DV survivors, people with mental health barriers, deal or lose your services and provisions.

Homophobic: women are never entitled to own a sexuality that denies people with penises access to their bodies on demand. Get with the penis or take the consequences: if you're lesbian, get on the conversion therapy and get over it.

Classist: those from backgrounds and education and histories that mean they are unable to relate to all this and have far more pressing, basic needs to be met, tough. Comply, or lose your provisions and services.

I could go on.

Bravo Karen, this needs breaking down over. And over. And over. The extent of the brain washing then becomes very apparent. Sane people cannot look at the above list and think it's far more important to support this agenda than look for an answer that is actually inclusive and looks at meeting all needs, reasonable adjustments.

I never thought I'd live through a time when women have to spell out the need for women only refuges and that it's impossible to change sex to MPs.

Although MM incredibly patronising at the end about ppl outside the room paying heed to the fact that reasonable debate is possible...

What does mm think she is debating,the need for women's refuges?

Although not directly related to this issue, I thought this comment on twitter was excellent. Put it out there in plain sight.

its not human
@Germainewasrig1

We should call their fucking bluff at the same time. And do men welcome here signs outside all female provision. We need to make it obvious to the public where this is going.

It will be very difficult to ignore the powerful points made by KIS

Maria Miller was visibly put off her stroke when KIS's dismantled

• the biased and loaded survey carried out by Women's Aid
• fellow panellists' confidence in being able to carry out a robust risk assessments, and exclude individuals, when someome turns up on a refuge's doorstep or makes the first phonecall.

I think MM was relying on the survey and the supposed ability of front-line staff being able to make decisions about which men would be allowed access and which ones wouldn't.

I noticed that KIS never used the word 'transwoman'. They were 'trans', 'transgender' or 'trans identified'. She elaborated on the different kinds of men who present as trans - and I think that's the first time that the Committee has been formally informed about the ridiculousness of seeing transwomen as women.

Top job, Karen!

Brava, Karen.

Is Maria Miller really that dim, or is she just pretending to not understand because she is so entrenched in her TWAW position?
In January, she tried to blame others for her own failings and urged ministers to be "clear that there is no threat to single-sex services", but she doesn't seem to like it when someone who works in the sector spells out the threat and asks for clarity.

I'm quite concerned that a volunteer is being given an equal platform to an experienced CEO. Not that volunteers aren't valuable, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this circumstance.

Also I won't post link as I know it's not allowed but Nia have an appeal at the moment - it's on their twitter and fb

Important Fairplay for Women report published last year:

"SUPPORTING WOMEN IN
DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL
VIOLENCE SERVICES
Giving a voice to silenced women:
evidence from professionals and survivors"

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

Is Maria Miller really that dim, or is she just pretending to not understand because she is so entrenched in her TWAW position?

Its a good question.

Janice Turner raised this and other issues with Maria Miller MP (chair of Women's & Equalities committee) though in July 2017:

(extract)
"The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency." (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

critique by Professor Kathleen Stock of the Women's & Equalities Inquiry led by Maria Miller:
medium.com/@kathleenstock/womens-place-talk-full-text-house-of-lords-oct-10th-2018-b1f3d70c4559

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

Janet saying 'I don't know if we've backed ourselves into a corner...'

Karen, Sarah and Jess were welcome contributions but god that was frustrating to listen to.

‘ what is single sex’ ummm what?? Who is that red haired person to speak for ‘young feminists’?!? You can’t make statements about what millions of young people think without saying where exactly that comes from. A survey? What? My 17 year old does NOT believe sex is fluid and has no issue understanding the difference between female and male, nor do any of her friends. I think framing the discussion that way, as a debate between older and younger feminists, which Janet also did, is utterly reprehensible and completely inaccurate. Jess, Sarah and Karen are all younger, based purely on looking at everyone in that room, than Maria, Diana and Janet & they didn’t seem to agree that sex is hard to determine or irrelevant or ‘fluid’, they seem clear that a woman is an adult human female.