Stephen Fry backs P Tatchell's call to revise sex education

[Imnobody4]

www.petertatchellfoundation.org/stephen-fry-backs-our-call-to-revise-sex-education/
I think this sounds reasonable but still some niggling suspicion. IF the quality and calibre of the training and trainers were beyond reproach, if there was a broad consultation beyond just LBGT I might accept it.
I'm pleased to see they acknowledge asexual. What do you think?

That absolutely wasn't my experience

I take your word for it and have no reason to question that. However Sheila Jeffrey's book ( Un-packing Queer Theory) was looking at the overall gay male culture, and how the central tenets of that were supposed to be immune to criticism.

I wonder, in your experience, has this fear of casual, promiscuous sex now subsided - or has there been a fundamental shift?

Here is an extract from a piece about the effect of the dating app - Grindr - on men's mental health, which suggests that the culture of the bath house is still alive and well and available 24/7: www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/4/4/17177058/grindr-gay-men-mental-health-psychiatrist

My experience in the mid 80s is that my gay male friends were engaging in a lot of casual sex with a lot of different men. While there were definitely connections being made in the US about how the disease was spread, it took until the late 80s for that message to arrive in the UK.

The landscape was very different in the 90s. By that time, we had already been to too many funerals

I am not in that environment anymore so couldn't comment on how gay men feel/act now. I also don't have a problem with casual sex as long as it's consenting, so to be honest if that is part of gay culture now I couldn't care less. Public sex for straight people is common too. I suppose when it comes down to it I am as wary of 'us' pontificating on gay culture as I am wary of Stephen fry or Owen Jones pontificating on the boundaries of women and girls. It makes me uneasy that's all.

I did know a few men like this who carried on regardless, in the 90s, as well as the men who were religious about condoms.

I stopped meeting a gay friend in one particular gay pub, after hearing a repellent older man talking about “chickens” , (friend told me it meant boys) . Repulsive, yet none of the men he was talking to picked him up on it. He was frightening, so maybe some of them were a bit afraid of him, I certainly was, but the “anything goes” culture seemed to be a factor in accepting all the extreme edges of male sexuality without challenge.

Rather disappointed by some of the patrons of the Peter Tatchell Foundation (which is basically PT and his assistant)

www.petertatchellfoundation.org/patrons/

I also don't have a problem with casual sex as long as it's consenting, so to be honest if that is part of gay culture now I couldn't care less. Public sex for straight people is common too

The reason this has come up as a topic, though, is due to Peter Tatchell trying to push this kind of 'free sex' agenda onto children. The idea of enforced public, mixed sex sex sessions/lessons on everything from masturbation to BDSM.

The difference between debating promiscuous gay male culture and women's boundaries, is that one seems to be a no-go area ( homophobic if attempted - even by gay men) - whereas women's boundaries are up for the taking without any discussion at all.

I really don't think that pubic sex is that common for straight people at all. Apparently, and again, according to Jeffries - when public sex was trialled in lesbian venues in the 1970's it never took off. Women, it seems, are not really into public or 'performative' sex.

What we do have now though is the promotion of prostitution as a liberal free act of the individual, and of pornography - even though much of that is inimical to the rights and dignity of women - certainly according to radical feminism - which is what how most of the women here would probably be described.

extreme edges of male sexuality without challenge

Jeffries would argue that much of this highly aggressive, masculinised sex is just as much a product of gendered masculinity and the high value placed on it in gay culture, as it is of male nature per se.

Rather disappointed by some of the patrons of the Peter Tatchell Foundation (which is basically PT and his assistant)

I wonder if Helena Kennedy is fully aware of some of his musings on paedophilia. I suspect not.

The difference between debating promiscuous gay male culture and women's boundaries, is that one seems to be a no-go area ( homophobic if attempted - even by gay men) - whereas women's boundaries are up for the taking without any discussion at all

THIS!!!

Fascinating how quickly the silencing starts - "you can't discuss this / say that - it's transphobic or homophobic, you know nothing as you're not trans / gay". But as soon as men want to appropriate or eradicate women's identity, culture, spaces - not a problem. "How quickly can we move these troublesome women out of the way for you?"

Fascinating how quickly the silencing starts

Everything has to be up for reasoned discussion, and that is precisely what we are attempting to do here.

Yes! Plus I don't think there was an equivalence there anyway. An equivalence would have been that gay men's sexual boundaries could be totally disregarded. That women must be allowed into gay bathhouses if they so chose - regardless of how the men felt about it.
Discussing a particular sexual culture, though is not the same as invading it and taking it over.

Jeffries would argue that much of this highly aggressive, masculinised sex is just as much a product of gendered masculinity and the high value placed on it in gay culture, as it is of male nature per se.

I'm not sure if I am inclined to agree. It is undoubtably a population level thing rather than individual thing - I know plenty of men who don't have that attitude to sex, including gay men, and I know a few women who do.

But I think overall there is a real difference in emphasis in male and female sexuality, that has to do even with basic things like the ability to enjoy sex in a physical way without a lot of complications.

The Guardian has published positive articles on gay men taking ketamine before sex. The same authors would be calling ‘date rape’ if heterosexuals had a sniff of alcohol.

There really is a reluctance to criticise anything practiced by gay men.

But I think overall there is a real difference in emphasis in male and female sexuality, that has to do even with basic things like the ability to enjoy sex in a physical way without a lot of complications

Women are also able to enjoy sex in purely a sensual way too, of course; but it is true that casual sex with large numbers of partners - disengaged completely from relationship values is more of a masculine thing. It has been argued that heterosexual men learn to modify that sort of hyper masculinity in relation to sex, because women prioritise relationship values.Gay male sexual culture doesn't have to be concerned with 'feminine' values - and it would seem that high status is, still, afforded to aggressive masculinity.

I was reading some reviews, yesterday, of a gay bath-house in Manchester. It would seem that totally anonymous, performative sex is still the order of the day. Slim 'feminine' looking men were referred to as "Anorexic Twinkies" - in a derogatory way. And aside from being very popular, bath houses, and casual sex, also seem to be quite addictive - which in itself is a complication, I'd say.

The convenient thing about writing a column or open letter etc is that you don’t actually write it government and thus don’t get a letter saying ‘hell no!’ (in government speak) back.

The government have just put the new relationships and sex education subjects through parliament. He’s tuned this so he can shoot his mouth off without risking anyone who matters taking any notice.

Tuned = timed

I think promiscuity I’m gay culture comes from the fact that gay men behave to same way straight men would if straight women would let them. It’s not for a lack of promiscuity on straight-men’s part that they aren’t banging complete strangers in parks, it’s just that they wouldn’t find a lot of women hanging around there after dark.

Just - Man Friday women being asked by police to leave the men's pond on Hampstead Health, this transman having to show a GRC and still being kicked out of the sauna: https://www.attitude.co.uk/article/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-1/19517/

Men are very keen on asserting their own boundaries. Unfortunately they are just as keen on eradicating ours.