Expectations of mothers includes financial abuse?

[clairemcnam]

We all know that mothers do much more than their fair share of housework, childcare and cooking than fathers in the vast majority of relationships. But there also seems to be an increasing expectation that as well as this, mothers should be contributing 50% of the family costs. Given that mothers are on average paid less than fathers, this means that mothers are being expected to contribute financially a larger proportion of their earnings to the family pot than fathers.

So mothers are now being expected increasingly to contribute more than 50% to raising a child on all fronts.

Agree Maria the lack of value for family childcare and the lack of value for the environment are part of the same mindset. If it doesn't result in money changing hands, it's of no value.

Slight off topic, but one thing that is never discussed is how being a SAHP is great for the environment - no travelling to work and nursery every day, most families I know who have a SAHP cope with only one car.

I personally am not into the nickel and diming approach I see some do and think it can be used in a manipulative and abusive way. I admit I have not seen a trend to argue for each to contribute 50% of the shared expenses, ignoring the actual incomes brought in. Seems more like a roommate arrangement to me which might work for well, roommates, but often does not work so well for families where decisions about where to live, about children/childcare, about whose job to “follow” if one needs to move, etc all are decisions that impact everyone. If a couple decided to move for a great job opportunity for one partner, and other partner has a hard time finding decent paying work in the new location, I don’t think it is fair to expect the second to contribute “50%” of household expenses. Same if as a couple you decide one of you will stay home to raise young children.

Where I do see something like that it is more a percentage based on the ratios of incomes earned. So if one partner makes $70,000 and one makes $30,000, the first contributes 70% and the latter 30% but I still don’t find that ideal for my own personal life for reasons of left over disposable income, tax obligations, etc. I also still find it really...I don’t know, uncomfortable for my own reasons. It still comes across to me as a “me versus them” dynamic. In my own marriage, I like to celebrate our financial wins and successes as a team, and endure the hardships as well as a team.

My husband and I do the one pot approach - it all goes in one pot and it all comes out of one pot. We both work but my income ranges from 6-10x more than his. We both work hard, it’s just the way he is compensated versus how I am. I see my higher income as something to be used to benefit us both not as “all mine”. Like if we are going on holiday if I want to stay in the nicer place, then we both are staying in the nicer place. I am not expecting him to stay in a less desirable place commensurate with his income, or to “give me more money” to stay in the hotel I want that I can afford.

We are childfree. I do think having children can add a very different dynamic as I have seen even very egalitarian couples end up with that dynamic impacted significantly after children. It’s not difficult for me to see that resentment can breed in those situations - for everyone - and communication can breakdown. Indeed, I have seen it happen to couples I know. The couple who once thought the other could do no wrong is now full of snipes and gripes about each other, including on the financial end (and yes, often laced with misogyny too - another reason why I don’t think men can ever be feminists, some can be allies yes, but that is as far as it gets).

We both do take care of the household itself but I do have long hours outside the home so he does a bit more - and actually I choose to outsource a lot of the work time to time (meal prep/planning services, cleaning services). That’s my own choice though because due to our work commitments I think we both can spend free time on other things - including with each other - than scrubbing the shower. There are times one or both of us have to be out of town for work for a period of time and it makes it a bit easier for the remaining partner. If it was just me on my own for example I would live in a smaller, maintenance free condo, and he would also be in his own smaller place. But we aren’t on our own, and while our house is still not very big it is big for one person in my opinion, so We try and make it a bit easier on us both. Other than that we are both as capable of taking out the trash, emptying the dishwasher, scrubbing the toilet, shovelling the driveway as the other and we both have eyes: if we see something needs to be done we do it.

There was a period of time where my husband was the higher earner, but the approach above was the same.

SAHPs do all sorts of things that are better for the environment because they have time to take care of things rather than throw money at problems.

I dont think anyone expects women to do all the childcare and housework and contribute 50% of the income. But I would say that in modern life, as a feminist and fair minded person, you cant also expect one person in a relationship to bear the financial load whether they want to or not. You do see a lot of people on mn who seem to think that men simply should be "providing" a lifestyle the woman would like while she can give up work if she wants without his agreement. To claim that its somehow financial abuse for a man not being forced to support a woman financially is bonkers. If you are in a partnership, you cant just quit your job and expect the other person to support you.

Its not right for one person to be forced to bear all the financial load or even the majority of it any more than one person should be forced to do all the childcare. It should be for a couple to agree and if a man doesnt want to agree to be the sole or main earner, thats entirely up to him. Same as if women dont want to stay at home that should be up to her. People on mn need to get over these traditional gender roles.

FeministCat great post. Yes agree with all you say. A marriage / relationship should be about teamwork not one-upmanship, and that's even more important when kids come along - sadly it's often when the mountain of work means the team breaks down. You see it all the time in Relationships.

I earned the same as DH before we had kids. When DD1 was little we decided as a family to move to follow a career opportunity for him in a country where I don't speak the language so couldn't have worked even if I hadn't wanted to be the carer for our child. So the 50% financial costs wouldn't be fair for us nor possible. You wouldn't make those decisions with a roommate after all.

i think a huge step forward would be for men to get more involved in child rearing and housework. that would really show how much they value it. I also think being involved in your child's life is hugely rewarding and both men and children would benefit from it as well as women. and i think women's financial inequality wont ever improve until we participate equally in the workplace and have a workplace which is designed for women's lives as much as men.

Vacuuming and washing dishes needs to be done (equally by both parties in the relationship) but it doesn't keep the rent/mortgage paid or put food on the table. We live in a capitalist society, you can't argue that in real terms, 'contributions' around the home have the same value as financial ones. I am a firm proponent of separate finances and the proportionate approach - e.g. both parties put 40% for e.g. of their earnings in a bills/outgoings account, but in real terms, the lower earner's 40% would be a smaller amount than the higher earner's. Whatever's left over is each person's to do with as they wish. BOTH partners should share housework, financial, childcare responsibilities - due to many factors it of course may not be possible for this to be exactly 50/50 at all times, but that should be the goal.

I don't dispute that society places unfair expectations on women and their role in the home and in life, but this is one of the reasons I'm fundamentally opposed to marriage. It harks back to a time when women were the property of their husband, not allowed their own money, expected to take on 100% of the home/caring responsibilities and facilitate their husband's role as the provider. While modern marriage of course does not come with these expectations, it disincentivises women being financially independent and places undue pressure on men to shoulder the majority of, or all of, the financial burden.

I would rather live in a society that actively works to dismantle these roles via such initiatives as heavily subsidised childcare, longer paternity leave, and flexible working options for fathers as well as mothers so women weren't disproportionately affected by taking time out of the workplace and ergo, the pay gap. But some element of personal responsibility has to come into it as well. Nobody is forcing anyone to marry or partner up with misogynist men who expect you to do 100% of the housework while also financially contributing 50%. Of course that's a sexist attitude and if it isn't what you want from a relationship, make that very clear!

I don't have or want children, but if I did, I would not expect that to exempt me from contributing financially. Nothing less than a shared responsibility for all duties would be acceptable to me. I wouldn't share my finances either - another reason I don't want to marry. It's not my partner's business what's left in my account after the bills are paid, and it's not my responsibility to keep them (and vice versa)

Men who ignore social obligations do so in the knowledge that it is their wife / girlfriend who will get the blame. If they don’t bring a present it’s because their wife didn’t remember, or they haven’t sent a birthday card to their great aunt - wife didn’t remind him, house not clean? Wife is a slattern.

But yes, as shown in the round at the pub example, they’ll do it when they know they’ll be held accountable.

I think this dividing up of income is really hard to do fairly.
My DH and I have one bank account, all of our income goes in. All of our bills go out. We have an equal claim on the disposable income left and talk to each other about big spends first - I probably budget more than he does so he will ask me if we have enough spare money before he buys something more than say £50..
We share childcare reasonably evenly although I do more housework. He works full time I do slightly less.

But I think our arrangement is less common. I think many couples have an unequal response. Most of the higher earners I know tend to be the husband's/boyfriends and far too many of them are resentful or borderline abusive.

“Vacuuming and washing dishes” is reductionist and absurd. What women have always done is keep humans and the planet healthy by preparing nutritious meals and teach children to be cautious, responsible and independent. When women aren’t at home these things no longer happen.

The percentage thing is crazy because if you look at percentages, women work far more hours and add far more long term value to humanity than men do.

What women have always done is keep humans and the planet healthy by preparing nutritious meals and teach children to be cautious, responsible and independent. When women aren’t at home these things no longer happen.

So men aren't capable of doing these things? That may have been the way of things in cave-dwelling times but surely we should want to move beyond that, not uphold it?

Men are capable but they don’t do them spontaneously to the extent women do.

I mean, I'm a woman and I definitely don't spontaneously make nutritious meals for multiple people or keep my house tidy. We as women need to stop enabling useless men (and stop generalising)

Women have stopped enabling useless men to a large extent. They have joined the workforce instead. And lost their critical role as a counterpoint to short term male thinking.

I definitely don't spontaneously make nutritious meals for multiple people or keep my house tidy. We as women need to stop enabling useless men (and stop generalizing)

This. I don’t like to cook (especially the prep part) for myself, let alone others, and I would rather work 12+ hour days than vacuum or scrub a toilet. I wish this BS about how I am innately wired to cook and clean - and better then men including my husband - would die the death it should.

And so we live in a society where caring for children and home is scorned. What happens when it is no longer done, or done very badly on the cheap? Society falls apart...

"I don't understand how some people think doing some vacuuming, washing dishes is the equivalent of financial contributions."

I'm a cleaner. I get paid to vacuum and scrub toilets. Other people get paid to scrub dishes, or launder clothes, iron or cook, etc. Cleaning is dirty work for sure, but I could make at least £20,000 a year doing it, If I left ds with relatives (which I tried for a while but he missed me too much).

People will often pay a lot, to not have to do domestic stuff themselves.
Someone has to do the shittiest, most undervalued jobs, some of us are lucky enough to get paid for at least some of them, some of the time. So many women are expected to so much, for dh's or dp's, for not much in return.

I hate housework too (don't mind cooking so much - but then neither does DP).

The difference isn't in wiring, it's in feeling responsible for things. I take responsibility when cooking to make sure the kids have 2 or 3 veggies with dinner. He just puts sausages and chips on the table (he's a good cook when he wants to be, this isn't for lack of ability).

He'll do the dishwasher once every side in the kitchen is full, or make the kids change their clothes when filthy. I will wipe down the sides, and wash up anything that didn't fit, and make sure the kids have clean clothes that fit in their wardrobes.

ie. I feel that the buck stops with me. I know that if I don't wipe the sides occasionally, then they will never get wiped. That's the difference, and it's been the difference with every partner I've ever had. They assume that there is someone else that'll be the safety net for what they can't be bothered to do.

The percentage thing is crazy

I hate it too. It assumes that higher earnings must mean harder working. Or something. No. I know male CEOs who golf four days of the week and earn $500,000/yr plus stock options, and female managers who work 12 hour days for $60,000 and no benefits. I earn a lot more than my husband but it is not because I work “harder” than he does. It’s more like I am paid for the skill and the stress, but his emotional and home support also assists me to endure that stress (and hours). It just seems like a weird one-upmanship game, which to me has no place in a healthy partnership.

If it doesn't result in money changing hands, it's of no value.

Yeah, it’s a very sad reality that most people think that.

Yeah, it’s a very sad reality that most people think that.

Thing is, there are very valuable things that are difficult to quantify financially. Such as catering for a family to optimise health to a budget. That’s a difficult skill - if it weren’t, there would be far less obesity and diet related illness.

There is nothing wrong with caring for children or for the house - they need to be done and preferably done well - it’s the assumption that women are hardwired to do them and therefore can never achieve true equality with men, and suggesting we become TOO equal is sexist because of our innate womanly caring souls. THAT’S the thing I and many others look on with scorn, not the act of caring for children or keeping a house in order.

I have to say, aside from the fact I just deeply know that I don’t want kids, one of the many many facets of not wanting them is because I don’t WANT to take that responsibility. I resent the very idea and intend to spend the rest of my life living to my schedule and mine alone. Does that make me less of a woman? Does the fact I’ve been the mucky, lazy one in pretty much all my past relationships meaning the male has done the majority of the cleaning and housework (and no, before you jump on me I know that’s not fair) make me less of a woman? Why do so many people just passively accept that these duties fall to them? As I said earlier you don’t have to be in relationships with people who don’t pull their weight!