Is it possible to be feminine and gender critical at the same time?

[RussellSprout]

I have recently become, due to peak trans and just general awareness of all the trans bollocks, fairly gender critical in that I think we're all just people who happen to have male or female chromosomes/genitals and why does everyone have to define themselves as a man or a woman when its very easy to tell what you are, just look between your legs... ie biology defines this.
So you could say I'm gender critical/agender/don't believe in the concept of gender and gender stereotypes in society.

However, as an individual I'm quite a feminine woman. I like dresses, heels, makeup. I work in a female dominated profession. I'll happily let my husband do the DIY around the house cos I have no interest in it. I'm comfortable with being perceived as being a woman by others.

Sometimes I'm not sure if this is at odds with my new gender critical status. Is it right that I conform to female stereotypes myself whilst being aware of the rights of others not to have to do so?

I'm happily feminine and don't feel the need to resist feminine stereotypes personally, nor do so for my daughter (I'll let her play with whatever toys she wants/dress how she wants.... won't stop her from playing with princesses and pink, but won't discourage her from boys toys/colours either. She usually goes for the pink stuff) . But does that make me hypocritical?

No it doesn't make you hypocritical. HTH.

I never think about that stuff. Wear what I want do,what I want

Kids play with whatever.

Still don’t believe people can change sex

Yes, it's possible, and yes, it's fine.

Being gender critical simply means that the markers of gender are socially constructed and it is biological markers that defines sex. Therefore I can have long hair, wear lipstick, whilst playing football, before heading for a pint in my jeans and trainers.... So can my husband. But we are very much different sexes.

There's nothing wrong with stereotypes unless they are imposed upon others.

Stereotypes are like opinions.

Isn’t the point about being gender critical that you do not believe you have an innate gender identity which makes you choose to dress or act how you do, but see it as social conditioning and choice which could easily be different without changing your sex?

In other words, you would still be female if you wore overalls and loved DIY and did not wear any make-up and you would still be perceived as a woman by others. Being gender critical does not mean you have to discard everything conventionally seen as feminine.

I am no less female on the days I am digging my garden than on the days I wear a dress and heels to go to work.

I guess so. I don't believe in gender identity. Just male or female and do what you want.

I'm not gender critical because I want all women to have sensible haircuts and wear androgynous clothes.

I'm gender critical because I refuse to accept stereotypes imposed on others because of societal pressures.

If you want to be feminine in floaty dresses with flower garlands in your hair, crack on. If you'd rather have less fussy hair and wear practical clothing fill your boots. Neither validates or undermines being a woman and as a woman you don't have to stick with one of those.

My daughter flits between mud smeared footballer and delicate sparkly bedecked princess as she sees fit. Both are her, neither defines her. I'm really happy she has the confidence to rock this whilst all the wokedom carries on around her.

The point is it's your biology that makes you a woman, not your dress and heels.
It's entirely up to you what you wear and how you choose to express yourself. It doesn't define anything about you. It's just the clothes you like. I love feminine stuff sometimes, other times I can't be doing with any of it. I'm still gender critical and still a woman.

I don't see a problem. As long I can discard things like the expectation of submissiveness (and high heels) there are other feminine tropes that I'm happy to play with when I feel like it.

I don't wear make up normally but on high days and holidays I enjoy it. And I have about 50 pairs of earrings.

Two words: Posie Parker - the most feminine gender critical feminist I know of and one of the bravest.

I'm very feminine looking as well, OP. And very gender critical, because I think that transactivism is a very dangerous ideology, that is harming women and children.

I think there are more viewpoints that make sense than just gender critical, or gender is some essential faculty in your brain.

For example, radical feminists tend, in classic rad fem works, to see gender constructs as negative creations which exist to help the patriarchy keep women down. So, if you took that viewpoint, you might think it was a good idea to reject femininity. Some people have argued that is a good reason to become a political lesbian.
I think most people, even ones who thik of themselves as radical feminists, have somewhat more moderate views. They may think some gender constructs are pretty neutral, so long as you aren't restricting people from flouting them. They might think they can be good or bad or neutral.

Personally, I think there is a cultural expression of sex, and there always will be, and trying to totally remove it wont work. And actually it is fine and pretty common for people to want to live in a way that reflects their sex socially. What is important is to see where culture functions in ways that are materially negative.

I think it's perfectly possible to be gender critical and also feminine. I am. But I do recognise that a lot of my "choice" to dress femininely and wear makeup etc is in reality the result of decades of social conditioning rather than free will. I can't really imagine why else I would spend hundreds of pounds a year on makeup and skincare products whilst my husband scrubs his face with a bar of simple and cracks on. I don't believe that I do this because I was born with a vagina and therefore my biology tells me I need red lippy.

Yes it's fine. GC means that you are clear that the reasons you like the things listed in the OP is definitely not "because you are a woman" and that the reason you are a woman is most certainly not because you like that list of things. Your womanhood and your life choices are independent. To some extent you like what you like due to cultural conditioning from an early age though. Fortunately in your case it doesn't seem to have done you much harm.

Much more pertinent than your own presentation choices is the question of whether you make choices about what skills and activities to encourage in children based on their sex. When buying a gift for a kid you don't know that well and have to guess what they will like, do you give "girly" stuff to girls and "boy" stuff to boys?

Gender stereotypes harm everyone, no matter which place you occupy on the jelly baby spectrum.

I often read posters here describing how they didn't fit in as gender-nonconforming girls in childhood. I was a very gender conforming girl, who loved dresses and ponies and reading/baking/making craft things (no make-up marketed at children then) but who was given an endlessly hard time by a family who prized masculinity above all else. As a girl, being called a 'tomboy' was the highest accolade you could earn in my family. Stereotypical 'boy' choices were considered good and superior, 'girl' choices were silly and inferior.

That's how I grew up to be a gender-critical, make-up wearing feminist. And why I believe that gender largely = personality and have brought up my own daughters to express themselves exactly as they like without attaching any judgement to their choice.

Gender critical feminists believe that the stereotypes associated with your sex (aka 'gender' and the social roles played by each sex are learned through socialisation and social conditioning. TRAs believe these things are 'innate' and have a biological element, more of a biological determinist position, much like Jordan Peterson, although JP is against TWAW.

The TRA believe anyone expressing stereotypes associated with the opposite sex means they really are the opposite sex inside their head. Which is nonsense and insulting.

Radical feminists have been trying to challenge these restrictive stereotypes, restrictive for either sex (women are expected to look attractive for men's benefit and be the carer, many men report deep distress at not being able to live up to macho expectations such as being the higher earner and have a higher suicide rate, possibly connected to these expectations) for decades.

Looking at them, known rad fems, most of them dress like normal women, hair long, smart clothes even dresses/skirts, they're not dressed macho or trying to appropriate male stereotypes or trying to dress deliberately subversive. It's more about what they say. Mind you even in a plain short and trousers, it's quite hard not to still look feminine when you're a woman because of the body shape.

Seeing as we do actually live in a very sexist world people who don't conform are marked out as trouble or just dismissed, it's quite normal to go about your day rejecting gender as anything more meaningful than social stereotypes, while conforming to them.

I'm often talking around gender critical subjects with my dad, he pointed out the other day "well, yknow, look at DS you've got him dressed all in blue, with short back n sides"
I said "well I'm not going to put him in s pink dress just to make a point, he'd get laughed at, but if he really did want to wear a pink dress I wouldn't dream of stopping him. I'd be proud to have a son in a pink dress. I'd make absolutely sure no one thought that meant he was really a girl mind you."

Thinking about it, I have noticed that its much easier to get my daughter to play with boys things than the other way around. For example she will play with Lego Ninjago but he won't go near Lego friends. Why is this, because boys learn early on that their stuff is better?

It seems easier to break the gender stereotypes with girls than boys, but boys grow into men who generally have little interest in all this, as gender stereotypes don't disadvantage them the same way women.

You've partially answered your own question there. Boys usually learn early on that things associated with girls are considered lesser or weak. They are often shamed or humiliated by trusted adults for expressing an interest in things associated with girls. Insults are based on girly=bad, such as "run like a girl", "big girls blouse", "sissy" etc.

A boy playing with things associated with girls is perceived to be stepping down. A girl playing with things associated with boys is perceived to be stepping up.

Woman is just being born with a female body. Nothing you do including cosmetic changes to that body can make you any more or less of a woman. It's just a fact to be lived with, and for many women, something to succeed in spite of.

It's not a performance of behaviours or social roles; obviously its not a costume as a quick walk around any supermarket comes up with women in every shape, size, style of dress and appearance; it's not a personality type or set of preferences. Nothing you do or wear or say can make you more or less of a woman.

People trying to push the idea that it is, and make it a 'socially constructed identity' have one agenda: to make it something that people with male bodies can have.

This is oppressive, degrading and highly damaging to women and women's rights and equalities in every conceivable way. But these people don't care. That tells you all you need to know really.

Worth reminding here of the 'webchat' the minister for the elimination of women and equalities had here:

MN: What is a woman?

Mordaunt:

MN: What are we going to call people born with absolute unambiguous xx chromosomes in every cell of their bodies, ovaries, uteruses, you know, 52% of the world's population?

Mordaunt: (and this is a quote) "I know what you're getting at."

Because answering with facts, with common sense, with reality, in fact giving any answer at all, would confirm that 'women' excludes males, which would anger men who wish to be able to choose their sex and have the resources and access based on their choices not on reality . For some bizarre reason no one understands, politicians appear to think this is a Good Thing. As opposed to utterly batshit and something the electorate will chew up and spit all over them.

Hmmm... so is it because of the perceived negative connotations of boys liking girls stuff that a boy /manneeds to call himself a girl /woman(according to trans ideology) for it to be ok to be in to this stuff? Because a man being into girls/woman's stuff threatens the sense of what it is to be a 'real man?'

Because a man being into girls/woman's stuff threatens the sense of what it is to be a 'real man?'

If you've got a strong stomach, look up sissification pornography. There's a lot of it, and it's about the sexual thrill of males being dominated, humiliated and 'forced' to be sexually submissive, by being dressed in feminine clothing, called by girls' names, and experiencing degredation. Some have mistaken this for believing this is what 'woman' is all about. If you read the Trans widows thread, you'll find women who have had to endure their transitioning husband going down this pathway and wanting this in their sex life.

Some of it is about boundaries - nothing seems to drive the TRA community to higher rage than encountering any boundaries or 'no' that they can't get past.

Some of it is about plain jealousy, rage and woman-hating (often based on perceived rejection) - of the type the MRA and incel posters here display, about women wanting more than their share/having all the power/ refusing men sex/ leaving them when treated badly and actually wanting child support etc

A lot of it is about AGP and is heavily sexual.

(Talking specifically about the TRA lobby/transgender movement/Stonewall umbrella as opposed to transsexual people living with severe body dysphoria)

Thanks for asking the question OP. I've been wondering the same myself recently. I am firmly GC but have started to wonder if I'm hypocritical because I adhere to a lot of feminine stereotypes myself. I also love children's clothing and don't dress my DDs in a totally genderless fashion. So I've been doubting my credentials, I suppose, and how I could justify them if challenged.

I do believe that my choices are probably almost entirely culturally influenced by the system of gender under patriarchy, and we would be better off without this. And that anyone should be able to present how they wish regardless of sex. But you can't change sex! Which is the main thing!