Is it possible to be feminine and gender critical at the same time?

[RussellSprout]

I have recently become, due to peak trans and just general awareness of all the trans bollocks, fairly gender critical in that I think we're all just people who happen to have male or female chromosomes/genitals and why does everyone have to define themselves as a man or a woman when its very easy to tell what you are, just look between your legs... ie biology defines this.
So you could say I'm gender critical/agender/don't believe in the concept of gender and gender stereotypes in society.

However, as an individual I'm quite a feminine woman. I like dresses, heels, makeup. I work in a female dominated profession. I'll happily let my husband do the DIY around the house cos I have no interest in it. I'm comfortable with being perceived as being a woman by others.

Sometimes I'm not sure if this is at odds with my new gender critical status. Is it right that I conform to female stereotypes myself whilst being aware of the rights of others not to have to do so?

I'm happily feminine and don't feel the need to resist feminine stereotypes personally, nor do so for my daughter (I'll let her play with whatever toys she wants/dress how she wants.... won't stop her from playing with princesses and pink, but won't discourage her from boys toys/colours either. She usually goes for the pink stuff) . But does that make me hypocritical?

Book sounds good Jellyfrizz. I find all that stuff fascinating

do wonder if some deep embedded gendered behaviours are almost more evolutionary psychology than cultural. E.g. makeup , maybe women in prehistoric times who accentuated their features using whatever materials they could find attracted a mate more easily etc. Humans have been going for millennia so plenty of time for these things to become ingrained

In most animals the males are the ones that make all the effort to catch the mate.

Bright colours, big feathers, snazzy dances.

Additionally it has been quite normal for men and women to wear makeup since forever. It's only very recently it's become a woman thing.

Back in the 90s, it was the boys who suffered from all this gender stereotyping much more than the girls. At that point, girls were playing rugby, football, martial arts, tec. while macho fathers wouldn't let their boys take up dance or anything with a whiff of feminity about it.

I think gender stereotypes still disproportionately affect males due to the 'sissy' effect.

You still don't see many boys doing ballet, horse riding, gymnastics at the weekend.

'femininity' is what your gran tried to instil in you in vain!
When you make derogatory comments about so called feminine traits you're just as guilty of lazy stereotyping as your gran ever was.

Maybe I'm being really obtuse but I don't understand why this is even a question.

No, Floisme. You don't know the first thing about me or my grandmother.

Regarding women as inherently feminine is regressive, outmoded repressive and unneccesary. All character traits and modes of dress are open to both sexes. There's really nothing more to it.

No I don’t know her. However you were the one who brought up the subject of grandmothers - not necessarily your own but the implication was that you considered their ideas old fashioned.

I totally agree that regarding personality traits or preferences as inherently female is regressive. There was however a touch of condescension in your earlier post towards women who may choose to present in a ‘feminine’ style. That’s what I was picking up on and I wasn’t the first poster to do so.

I think gender stereotypes still disproportionately affect males due to the 'sissy' effect.
Thats because gender rules reinforce a hierarchy, with men placed above women.

Tomboys are seen as uppity, they are resented for trying to be men.
The worst thing you can call a man is 'woman', it degrades him.

There is a difference between being feminine and conforming to stereotypes. I do things that are both masculine and feminine (more feminine though to be honest) because that’s just who I am. I can’t deny that part of that is down to feeling a greater affinity with my sex and seeing them do more feminine things than masculine and adopting the same. But it’s not born out of a desire o please or conform.

I have to disagree on the sissy effect though. Gender stereotypes mean that girls are raised to form personalities that are eager to please and fragile self esteem in need of regular reinforcement. It’s true that there is less of a taboo on women doing masculine things but the effects that gender stereotyping has on early childhood development is that it permenantly disabled women by teaching them personality traits that make it easy to tell them what to do and to manipulate them. Boys are encourage to be strong and brave and other overcome. Girls are encouraged to be pleasant, compromising and, submissive.

''The sissy effect'' is when boys are shamed for taking part in an activity usually dominated by girls, such as ballet.

'The sissy effect'' is when boys are shamed for taking part in an activity usually dominated by girls, such as ballet.
Then more men or boys should learn not to give a s*. I never did, being quite keen on needle and thread and it made me good pocket money at the time, they all came to me to take their jeans in.

As far as the original question surely we are beyond what someone wears or how they dress matters. It should not matter if its some long floral dress or 20 hole DM's and a Motorhead shirt. It is what they say that matters and how they act.

Isn't the issue with the question that if you are gender-critical then you wouldn't believe that certain things are feminine or masculine in the first place?

YANBU. The question is do you think you like make up because you're a woman, or do you think you like make up because the patriarchy has conditioned girls and women to have low self esteem which can then be raised again by buying products to make us look 'better.'

Sometimes it's just easy to go along with social norms. And you can't spend every second of the day fighting the patriarchy. Gender expectations are ingrained in us all, at a level that it's not really possible to reach and undo.

I don't think anyone on the GC side will be telling you what you can and can't wear or how to present. You are Female or Male regardless. John Inman was every bit as male as Clint Eastwood and Marilyn Monroe every bit as female as Lea DeLaria.

Regarding women as inherently feminine is regressive, outmoded repressive and unneccesary. All character traits and modes of dress are open to both sexes. There's really nothing more to it

That is a complete re-write of your original, sneering, condescending post.

Certain things are coded feminine or masculine in a culture. This is only a problem when a) one is seen as better than the other, b) it is assumed that all men will have all of the masculine traits and interests and all women will have all the feminine ones as innate properties, c) people are shamed and shunned for how they conform or do not conform to these coded things and no variations are permitted.

There are people on this thread who are very into coded feminine things, and people who are into masculine coded things. Pretty much everyone will embrace a mixture of traits and likes because that is how individuals have personalities.

I don't care about masculine or feminine in the context of women's rights because they aren't relevant. Our sex is the immutable fundamental. Victory rolls or dirt under the fingernails from engine grease are neutral when it comes to our sex. Either is fine.

Er, no, it isn't, lass. You seem muddled.

There was absolutely nothing 'sneering' or 'condescending' in anything I've written. You seem to be taking the idea of femininity being outmoded extremely personally. Why do you think that is?

I'm not sure that wearing make up and high heels is 'feminine', anyway. I'd say that masculine & feminine relates more to certain kinds of personality traits and learned behaviours than to clothing. We are all our own unique combination of traits.

Some behaviours or ways of expressing certain personality traits do have a socially conditioned or sanctioned aspect, though. So when we saw the video of the trans-woman smashing up a shop in the U.S when the assistant ( politely) mis-gendered them - we saw socially sanctioned male aggression on display - even as they were wearing pink and carrying a handbag.

And we also see some women being overly solicitous in certain situations - as they have learned not to be too 'pushy' or 'selfish', and to be kind etc.

The expression of similar personality traits can often be received and judged very differently, depending on whether they are expressed by a man or a woman.

I do wonder if some deep embedded gendered behaviours are almost more evolutionary psychology than cultural. E.g. makeup , maybe women in prehistoric times who accentuated their features using whatever materials they could find attracted a mate more easily etc. Humans have been going for millennia so plenty of time for these things to become ingrained

Generally it is the males who are more colourful and showy, and who have to work hard to attract a mate. However, in human society female subordination and lack of economic and cultural power has meant that it is women who have had to preen and display in order to attract male attention and protection, or to 'keep a man'.

It's fine. I absolutely bloody love clothes (although not necessarily feminine ones) but that's not the reason I'm a woman.

I think that clothes( and home making and furnishing )are the main avenues of creative expression for many women - still. Interestingly many gay men are also really into clothes and interior design - and can be very stylish.

Many of our ideas about masculinity and femininity only date back to the Victorian period, most notably:

• The idea that women are chaste and men are promiscuous. In the 18th century, women were considered the more lustful and promiscuous sex. The 19th century reinvented us as either the sexless angel in the house, or a fallen woman.

• Men wearing plainer clothes. The Victorian period saw the invention of a variety of uniforms for men, mostly in dark colours, while women were resplendent in enormous crinolines and bright newly invented dyes. As PP have said, other periods in history looked quite different. At the court of Louis XIV, men wore high heels, big curly hair/wigs, richly embroidered clothes, and Louis himself favoured "petticoat breeches" which were like voluminous frilly culottes.

• The idea that it is mainly women and gay men who are interested in interior design. This notion emerged in the 1890s around the time of Oscar Wilde and the Aesthetic Movement. Later the suffragettes would claim interior decoration as a woman's domain. Prior to all of this, men expected to take responsibility for decorating their houses as they were usually paying for it.

Other ideas are even newer and only emerged in the 20th century:

• Blue being for boys and pink for girls. Originally pink was considered a masculine colour because it was a lighter version of red, while blue had feminine associations because it was the colour of the Virgin Mary. There was a switch in the early 20th century.

• Crazy cat ladies. The Victorians criticised women for being obsessed with their pets, but associated them with dogs, not cats.

RuffleCrow

Er, no, it isn't,lass. You seem muddled

Er no, the person who is muddled is you. You were called out on your post and are now backtracking. Your reply to Floisme was a complete rewrite of what you said in your first post.