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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I've lost my daughter to trans activism

89 replies

slipperywhensparticus · 26/04/2019 22:10

First year at uni and she is lost

I've known she is a lesbian for ages it doesn't bother me

She now believes Julia long is violent aggressive and deserves to be forcibly removed for thinking about asking questions

Men are allowed to be women if that's how they feel

Biology is not reality

The female brain is real

Karen white is a rare example and it was only once it's not enough to get worked up about

She considers herself part of the trans community despite considering herself female

She believes women can have penises

Fucks sake I hate this she isnt even bothered about sharing toilets and changing rooms with men

I'm giving up why should I fight when my only reason to protect women's spaces isnt bothered fuck it all

OP posts:
Snarglefisker · 26/04/2019 23:14

I don’t know if it can be blamed on nature.

howmanyleftfeet · 26/04/2019 23:42

It's not nature, it's the enemy of nature, capitalism.

It's quest to commodify everything continues, it likes to destroy natural things so it can sell new versions back to us.

It's currently commodifying the human body. If fertility is destroyed, that's a profit opportunity.

Martine Rothblatt, billionaire transwoman, bio-tech investor, lawyer and entrepeneur, sees transgenderism as the stepping stone to transhumanism. Transhumanists believe that the next step in human evolution is self-directed evolution, through the merging of humans and technology (eg nano-technology).

Martine hopes that, ultimately, he will work out how to download a human mind into software, this achieving immortality. He has an AI robot modelled on his wife. Yes this sounds bonkers, but he's serious. Here's his book on it.

Martine works within the capitalist system, there will be a lot of profit available on society's path to transhumanism, if he and his mates can convince everyone that's the way to go (they're doing a good job so far).

I wonder if in the future, there will be two types of people - cis and trans, but it'll have nothing to do with gender. Trans will be those with body modifications, who see themselves as super human, and cis will be the rest of us, without.

howmanyleftfeet · 26/04/2019 23:45

slipperywhensparticus apologies, I've just realised this is on your thread, not very useful for your situation.

Have you seen the Pique ReSistance Project? It's a group of detransitioned women (mostly or all lesbians I think), and they talk about their experiences.

They said, in their first video, that one of the things parents can do to help is to take them out of the situation to do other stuff not at all to do with gender. Not to say they're doing that, but just to try to keep their contact with the wider world and encourage any other interests they have. I'll find it, one sec...

howmanyleftfeet · 26/04/2019 23:48

Here it is, this is worth watching IMO.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=kxVmSGTgNxI

howmanyleftfeet · 26/04/2019 23:49

Here's their website: www.piqueresproject.com/blog/detransition-qa-1#

Antibles · 26/04/2019 23:57

Interesting but I think it's merely a new gaslighty tool men are using to get their sexual kinks normalised and to undermine women's sex-based rights.

How many of them would be saying they were women if women still didn't have the vote, weren't able to own property, were sold off into marriage under the promise to obey, rarely had economic power, no representation by female politicians, very few employment choices, couldn't compete in high level sport.

It's our very new freedoms and choices that make it such a cost-free decision for men to do this right now. They took quick advantage of our sexual freedom to 'free up' their own sexuality, in terms of what they demand or expect of women, and the normalisation of pornography.* Now the expanded trans concept is being used to invade our sex-segregated spaces, pressure lesbians into sleeping with them, and even stealing the very name 'woman' which we need in order to organise as a class against our oppression.

They just never STOP.

*Nor do I think it is a coincidence that just as domestic violence has been criminalised and is infinitely less socially acceptable, that violence is finding its way into our bedrooms in the guise of sex.

I've gone slightly off topic OP, sorry, but I'm going to post it anyway.

BettyDuMonde · 26/04/2019 23:58

My eldest (a boy) is also a fresher. He has made a ‘gay transman’ friend (a butch heterosexual woman, in old money) who has outright told him ‘I just didn’t want to grow up to be a woman’ 😥

DS is largely on the other side of the ‘culture war’, considers himself to be a libertarian and thinks SJW types are nonsensical. He’s a bit of a lone voice amongst his peers but he has a girlfriend (who says his politics are ‘embarrassing’) and is ASD enough to not give much of a shit about being different.

DS thinks the infinity of genders stuff is ridiculous, but is OK with his new transman friend, because ‘whatever, not a big deal’.

When I asked if he thought it was ok for his friend to be in exclusively gay male spaces, spaces that are a legacy from an era where homosexual activity was illegal and punishable by chemical castration and imprisonment, he conceded that no, it probably wasn’t ok.

He thinks I’m a bit out of touch and sometimes threatens to change his insta bio to ‘Raised by Terves’ but I learned long ago that the best response to pretty much everything he comes up with is either to say ‘that’s nice dear’ and change the subject or laugh.

We must be doing OK because he just whatsapped me to ask if I will get a matching tattoo with him 😂
(and to ask for the Netflix log in 🙄)

slipperywhensparticus · 27/04/2019 00:02

Thanks for your links and words I needed to talk it out part of me wanted to snap at her what is wrong with you,? Telling me Julia long was forcibly removed because she shouldn't be asking questions if they hurt peoples feelings was the last straw for me I pointed out that not asking questions was the worst thing where would we be without it I just got back that feminists are being seen as hysterical women just like suffragettes were and wont achieve anything I just looked at her and said we would have to agree to disagree she cant see it is damaging to think this way

OP posts:
birdsdestiny · 27/04/2019 00:05

If it's any help I shouted TWAW back in the day, I didn't give one thought to what that meant to women and women's spaces. I also didn't always treat other women well. I admire people who have been feminists from a young age, I wasn't a rounded enough human being back then to be a feminist.

BettyDuMonde · 27/04/2019 00:06

Suffragettes were indeed seen as hysterical women - they still got shit done though, eh?

bettybeans · 27/04/2019 02:07

I like the "why?" approach. Don't fight too hard, just try to prompt her to think through her belief system and bring it back to certainties rather than vague assumptions and what we know (as fact) thanks to science. Think of the ways in which your mind was changed. The ways in which you retaliate against being forced to deny actual material reality.

I only realised very recently that some educated and fairly bright people have genuinely started to think that trans women might actually have periods, for example. Seriously. A gentle reminder of what a period actually is helps with that one. The material differences between males and females: why differences are ok and should be discussed. That sort of thing.

If she thinks of herself as a feminist ask her about legal definitions and how we now measure impacts. Talk to her about discrimination of women - sexual objectification, expectations, treatment in the workplace (maternity leave/lack of promotion opportunities etc) How do we define marginalised groups and measure anything if everything is fluid? Ask her how she defines transwomen? What is a trans woman? If she goes down the "anyone who says they are" pathway she'll hopefully make her own connections about how that simply can't make any sense.

Maybe try to find out what she thinks the boundaries should be. Is it ok for children to share intimate spaces (leisure centres changing rooms) with people who are male and identify as women but present as fully male?

Find out if she thinks gender can be restrictive. What it means. What the rules are. If she follows those rules herself. Get logical rather than falling into the emotional - which is easy, I know that because I do it.

I've written a lot but that's mostly because I'm building a list in my own head for my own daughter should this day come. Good luck to you. I understand your fear and worries Thanks

dreichuplands · 27/04/2019 02:19

My mother has gone the same way. Once a gender critical woman she has fallen for this new trendy cause, because it is new and trendy. I firmly believe the novelty and the trendiness will fall off with time.
I wasn't a feminist in my 20's, I think I thought that earlier female generations just hadn't been trying hard enough.
I discovered the hard way that was nonsense.

Childrenofthestones · 27/04/2019 05:20

FannyCan said.....

don't know what any of this means except it's everywhere!

I'm beginning to wonder if it is an extreme form of natural selection/population control , sterilising and/or messing with the sexuality of a generation. I often ramble on about the world being overpopulated but I didn't anticipate that somehow nature would pull a joke like this on the human race to address the problem.

Well as a theory it's no worse than some I've heard. I have always considered cultural Marxism a right wingers panic theory but re " The long march through the institution's" this madness is starting to fit the bill.

FannyCann · 27/04/2019 08:04

Good post Antibles some very valid points there. And a lot more likely than my Winebefuddled ramblings.

Especially this
Nor do I think it is a coincidence that just as domestic violence has been criminalised and is infinitely less socially acceptable, that violence is finding its way into our bedrooms in the guise of sex.

SquishySquirmy · 27/04/2019 08:17

Tricky, bit try to avoid arguing her into a corner, even if you have the better arguments and logic on your side you'll risk her digging her heels in.

For some reason the advice given to those whose relatives/loved ones have joined a cult have come into my head....
"don't tell them they've been brainwashed"

truthisarevolutionaryact · 27/04/2019 08:20

OP - it's worth remembering that your daughter is currently being compelled to believe TWAW etc. Life for a Uni student who doesn't parrot these mantras would be very hard. Some of the biggest bullies (the gravy train riders, writers of bollocks and the ones monitoring / threatening other academics for wrongthought and wrongspeak) work in Unis and therefore set a climate of fear and intimidation. They have a lot of power there and exercise it over our young people.

They do move on from the Uni phase - and if she's never rebelled before - well here it is. Like everyone suggests, I'd pick my battles and keep the relationship going at all costs.

redcaryellowcar · 27/04/2019 08:30

I don't really have any useful advice on the lesbian/ trans issues but would reiterate that whatever her beliefs and yours, she's your daughter and perhaps relax and consider this a phase, keep being interested in her, take her out for lunch, go shopping etc, do 'normal' things with her. I realise at the moment the 'brain washing' is scary, but if you fall out with her you'll have even less influence.

BuckingFrolics · 27/04/2019 08:37

My DD and I had some of our worst arguments about trans issues. We had to agree simple not to talk about it.

That was 3 years ago. I am so glad we were able to take that step as I adore her and the pain of being in conflict with her was awful. I think, but do not dare ask, that she is changing her views.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 08:52

I just got back that feminists are being seen as hysterical women just like suffragettes were and wont achieve anything

There are some parallels in the manner in which women are being smeared, silenced etc.

Perhaps if people understood better about how women achieved the vote despite all the barriers, pressures, violence & attempts at control they might feel more admiration for those women who were also deliberately labelled as 'hysterical'.

There are a number of Dr Julia Long's speeches available.
recently at Haringey Resisters:

Dr Julia Long's speech (WNTT Speakers' Corner event 2017) with feminist analysis about the history and importance of women being able to name men as men, identify male behaviours and patriarchal power is available & worth reading in full as many TRAs & allies have seen a small clip deliberately cut & widely distributed with commentary:

pastebin.com/nGwr3i4U

transcribed by PencilsinSpace who was there and explained:
"It was a bit like in the emperor's new clothes when the little boy cries out 'but he hasn't got anything on!' - everybody's thinking it, everybody knows it, but nobody's dared to say it. So of course it's shocking when someone finally dares.

Julia's talk was all about the importance of being able to name a man as a man. It's about shedding light on the situation we find ourselves in, which can only be done if we can name men as men."

Dr Julia Long (transcribed):
(small extract & speech worth reading in full)
"So I just wanted to start with that simple act of naming because that's the sort of thing that we're not supposed to do. (continues)

We're also told, and I think these are things we really need to think about, when we're told that by simply naming a man as a man that we are making young people kill themselves. Because that is some of the worst emotional blackmail that I have heard, but for any of us who work in the women's sector and have heard the way that abusive men try to control their partners, then threats to kill themselves come as no surprise. But this has taken on a bit of a different slant because we are being told that if we name men as men, if we assert our right to name reality, that we are contributing to children's suicide, is a particularly pernicious rhetorical strategy and manipulative rhetorical strategy of transgender activists, so I think we need to really think about what's going on when they do that. And similarly, in terms of you're killing transwomen, who are women, not men etcetera.

So we're subjected to all of this kind of thing, we're also subjected to this kind of thing, as I said they often get called TERFs, transphobes etc. This is just - I mean these are a bit old now so there's been plenty more since these appeared online. But this kind of imagery here, 'Have it TERFs' with a huge man wielding an axe, about to chop this woman into bits by the look of it.

But we are told that we are violent and we are using hate speech and that we are responsible for deaths when the amount of rhetorical violence, hate speech and threats that come from transgender activists is really ... really ... you need a strong stomach to read some of this stuff. This quote here is about how we need to have our throats slit one by one etc.
So it really is quite indistinguishable from the kinds of online misogyny we see from the old-fashioned kind of men who wear trousers, it doesn't look really very different XXXXXX [redacted for MN guidelines]

Thread following the forcible removal of lesbians & other women by male security guards & police from Accenture's 'inclusive' LGBT+ event has further links:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3539529-Lesbians-removed-from-Accenture-inclusive-trans-event-by-7-police-officers

LangCleg · 27/04/2019 09:07

I wonder if in the future, there will be two types of people - cis and trans, but it'll have nothing to do with gender. Trans will be those with body modifications, who see themselves as super human, and cis will be the rest of us, without.

When I'm feeling pessimistic, I envisage a neo-feudal transhumanist future, in which the elites pillage and ravage the bodies of the neo-serfs - surrogacy, transplants etc, gender-related or otherwise.

Are you aware of the YA sequence by Scott Westerfeld called Uglies?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uglies

Or Altered Carbon. Something like that.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 09:10

Karen white is a rare example and it was only once it's not enough to get worked up about

Its not about Karen White, its about the vulnerable female prisoners who White assaulted (4) & also the vulnerable women prisoners who had been locked in with & forced to share space (showers) with White, a predatory male convicted of multiple assaults against women & children.

Its about the MoJ system which has failed in its duty of care to all female prisoners.

There are many vulnerable women currently locked in with violent male prisoners including paedophiles thoughout the UK. In Scotland the prison system allows self-id, see Sophie Eastwood/ Alex Stweart/ Tiffany Scott for consequences.
transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/12/male-transgender-individuals-convicted-of-violence-against-women-children/

Women in prison are especially vulnerable & the majority already being victims of male abuse/violence.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 09:34

Ask her how she defines transwomen? What is a trans woman? If she goes down the "anyone who says they are" pathway she'll hopefully make her own connections about how that simply can't make any sense.

Peach Yoghurt
'Transgender and the Bicycle Analogy'

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:38

Ben Boyce on YouTube has done many videos with the de transitioners below as well as a few others including transwomem.

His interview with Ben GNCentric is extremely good and important.

Also his latest with a trans woman.

I notice he's interviewed Erin Brewer who talks about how trauma leads to gender dysphoria and the importance of treatment as a mh condition and that transitioning isn't always the right treatment.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:44

Ironically, the trans movement approach debate in a binary fashion while denying there's a biological binary of sex.

They think any feminist questioning it are wholly bad and evil. And no debate.

There are very many levels of nuance and complexity around what exactly trans is, as these films show.

Not recognising this is ultimately extremely dangerous. Not helpful for you op but these young uni kids need to stop being so binary about the debate!

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:47

Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior: A Guide for Academics, Journalists, Parents, Gender Diversity Advocates, Social Justice Warriors, Tweeters, Facebookers, and Everyone Else
by Cordelia Fine, Daphna Joel and Gina Rippon

Extremely important reading, as is Gina's book the Gendered Brain.

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

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