Autism and gender NAS conference

[FemaleAndLearning]

Interesting conference being held by the National Autistic Society. Speakers are pro trans I would say.
Facebook comments are interesting and NAS have issued a warning to block people!
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155901417116599&id=28389691598

Of the children that I know of that have been declared trans, all have an autism diagnosis (or are on the pathway).

It is very worrying.

It really worries me that healthy autistic girls are made to feel that they are not proper women so must transition to male. It's a recipe for disaster for them.
They don't feel like they fit - transitioning won't help them. In fact, it will make things even worse.

I'm autistic and as a young person I went through a phase of rejecting anything to do with femininity. My hair was always short, I wore masculine clothes, I'm sure if someone had suggested I was trans I would have gone along with it. Interestingly my boyfriend at the time (probably also autistic) is now an post-op transexual (old school type who's undergone surgery)

I have a question - is there any issue with diagnosis of autism or ASD conditions in girls in comparison with boys? I know that some neurodevelopmental conditions are recognised far less frequently and at a much later age in girls. Partly because of how they present and partly because of lack of research. Is autism the same?

This is worrying. I'm autistic and spent most of my childhood being a tomboy and CRYING because i wanted to be a boy.

But, i didnt want a penis, i now realise i just recognised the fun and freedom boys had in comparison to girls. Girls have to 'be good', i had to act like the prey i was as a young girl, when i wanted to have adventures.

Thesedays i'm perfectly happy as an adult human fenale, thank fuck no one was around to take my crying seriously and fuck up my body for me!?

NeurotrashWarrior the 'Becoming a Feminine Entity | with Jadis Argiope' s amazing. Janis is incredibly bright and aware.

bettybeans
"I have a question - is there any issue with diagnosis of autism or ASD conditions in girls in comparison with boys?"

I think there is. i wonder if there are any stats on the age at which boys are diagnosed verses girls being diagnosed.

I would guess boys are usually diagnosed earlier than girls, much earlier. I would guess this is because boys present with behaviors perceived as naughty or difficult earlier and get noticed by parents and especially at school.

As am example of this my friend has an ASD boy, I have an ASD girl, same school year. Although we both had concerns fairly early on he was diagnosed several years before my girl.

I've also noticed/hear anecdotally, that girls mask their autism.

This is all anecdotal, i have not figures but I bet someone else has some.

This is very worrying indeed that the NAS have seemingly gone protrans. I think they are being influenced by powerful TRAs from within or externally.

Italian - yes girls do mask, dr tony attwood has a brilliant talk on youtube about aspergers in girls which is me to a T. I flew under the radar til my 30s, despite my sister being diagnosed at secondary school. She can't mask like i do.

Italiangreyhound

Yes it's an excellent watch. I love that the first answer in response to a teen vogue film on trans and non binary crap is "it's gaslighting."

Regarding differences between diagnosis in girls and boys. (All anecdotal, but very worthy of actual research.)

I was helping a friend who suspects her daughter is autistic but is in another country. I watched the NAS film on diagnosing girls and it really struck me that, once again, there were actually a lot of stereotypes with in it. In two ways.

I could see that the way girls expressed behaviours were heavily influenced by social stereotyped conditioning. I have taught primary aged children with autism in an sen setting for many years now; more socially aware children with autism are more influenced by stereotypical social conditioning. Those who are much less able to communicate and socialise behave in similar ways between the sexes. Always exceptions to the rule, but I've taught many boys who actually are also able to 'mask' their autism.

At the same time, a stereotype was being presented that I found compelled to challenge as an absolute truth, as so many of the girls I know with autism didn't fit that mould. And I could think of many boys who did.

At the same time, it's a stereotype that could aid diagnosis for some girls who are struggling at school.

What struck me most is I could say some of it described me growing up but I know^^ I'm not autistic. Those were the gender stereotyped parts.

We really do need to be very careful not to also stereotype when it comes to girls and autism, as it both does the girls a disservice as well as boys who present in a similar way. (I have seen one boy being referred to psychiatrists to explore gender dysphoria before they got their asd diagnosis.)

I can see how social conditioning would affect boys' behaviour (as it can for all boys) however I also believe more males tend to be diagnosed with other co-morbid conditions (hate that word) such as specific learning difficulties, adhd, motor skill difficulties etc. Talking to occupational therapists and SALTs, it does seem to be that they see more boys in mainstream and at a moderate learning difficulty level. However, whether that's a result of XY or social stereotyping, we of course don't know.

At SLD/PMLD I imagine, simply from my anecdotal experience, the division between the sexes is more balanced.

The big reason why it's extremely important not to stereotype girls and boys in this way rwt autism, is that as soon as they don't fit that mould, to those around them who aren't really experienced in autism, peers, parents, teachers etc, they run the risk of being channelled down the trans route either by trying to find out why they don't fit in and stumbling across things on YouTube or by outside observers.

Sorry that's long but really really really important!!!

Interesting post neurotrashwarrior. This Dutch study suggested that girls with autism were more likely to be under diagnosed:

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1362361316672178

It’s behind a paywall (maybe pm me if you want to read?) but they suggested that perhaps some of the screening instruments used to reach a diagnosis were not sensitive enough to identify girls so only those who were more obviously affected were picked up. They also thought there may be more sensory differences.

The difficulty with our heath service is that there are so many ‘silos’. I would love to know how much contact there is between clinicians from autism services and gender identity services to discuss how they should develop ‘pathways’ between them.

Regarding diagnosis of ASD in girls, yes it is believed to be underdiagnosed. Because girls do tend to mask.

I found this interesting. Note point 36

taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/first-signs-of-asperger-syndrome-in-young-girls-pre-school/

This Dutch study suggested that girls with autism were more likely to be under diagnosed:

I agree they are. There's still a lot of linking the stereotype of autism to the stereotype of the 'male brain' and so gender stereotypes. It's all very complex. Girls that really 'stick out' as gnc plus other key areas may well be diagnosed more quickly.

I suppose I'm looking at this from a very different angle; that of working with many children with autism.

I think I'm just trying to say that actually some children mask their autism, boys and girls. But yes more girls appear to go under the radar especially if they're gender conforming.

Im probably not explaining myself very well!

I do know that my niece who is autistic but not diagnosed in another country enjoys very stereotypical girls activities and toys but actually was completely unable to 'play or do them' "properly". (Not diagnosed now as it would mean a different schooling system and she's managing, just. But she has very noticeable social communication and social problem solving difficulties.)

Replace the dolls she lined up and gave birthdays to and would list off their ages and various data with trains and the activity was the same. She liked trains as a young child, Thomas the tank etc, but moved away from it. Perhaps if she continued to love trains (a typical asd 'stereotype') she would have been even more 'different' and a diagnosis would have been considered. She 'masked' it by moving onto dolls around aged 6-7. She also however doesn't fit the description of "autism in girls" the NAS has on its website. Temple Grandin doesn't.

I think I'm just trying to make a point about being careful about generalising and stereotypes.

And at the same time, noticing those stereotypes aswell is important as

Not recognising autism in girls and women with psych diagnoses is dangerous.

If we could go back to the conference it is extremely worrying. The NAS used to have balanced approach on their website with some pro transitioning and some questioning. It has almost all moved to pro trabsition now and that is shocking!

They now link directly to Gendered Intelligence and the bonkers Genderbread Man. They also link directly to the Brighton Allsorts toolkit.

It is so unautistic because these dont stand up to autistic science and logic.

And very relevant to the conference one pro questioning and seemingly sensible voice on the website is Sally Powis Consultant Clinical Psychologist. But she has been left out of the conference lineup.

I would urge any autistic women to write to the NAS expressing their concerns about the conference

SpartacusAutisticusAHF interested in the masking and higher risk of suicidality if you have a link at all?

Yes, SpartacusAutisticusAHF

Re "Yes, girls/women tend to mask more than boys/men, and gendered/sex-role stereotypes present a way to mask, a sort of ready made costume. New research has showed though that masking is a very specific risk factor for suicide in the autistic population (it's not a risk for non-autistics). " can you link, please?

I was scrolling though the board and trustees of the NAS. The number of them who are actually on the spectrum themselves seem small (I only spotted one). I guess the Forum may include more on the spectrum.

But I'm actually feeling somewhat disappointed by that. I assumed that the would be more people at the helm who were on the spectrum and so could speak from that experience (of course, parents of children with ASD have a valid experience too and they are rightly included and I'm not criticising that).