I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

[LesbianMeansSomething]

You know the No Outsiders programme which that gay teacher came up with all by himself to challenge homophobia in primary schools (and which just happens to promote a lot of the current transactivist ideology)?

Well, guess what? No Outsiders was a £575,435.85-funded project dating back to 2006, which this teacher and other individuals and groups such as Gendered Intelligence were involved in developing from the start.

What they were discussing is worth looking at for yourself: www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/ but, to quote the article:

"There is an air of unreality about all this. ‘At what cost do we deny children’s and teacher’s sexuality? What do we lose if desire and pleasure are banned from the classroom? What is the place of the research team members’ own bodies, desires and pleasures in this research?’ Reading these questions, you have to keep reminding yourself that the bodies in question are those of adults and the children aged 5 to 11 who are in their care to learn."

ADropofReality

I want schools to challenge sexism, misogyny and homophobia.

I want religion taught in schools as a belief system and not as fact. I want tolerance for other people’s beliefs taught.

I believe strongly in safeguarding and inclusion.

I also happen to think ‘No Outsiders’ is shite. I think Andrew Moffat misrepresents the Equalities Act in the same way he misrepresented an email telling him ‘he won’t last long’ as a death threat.

Am I allowed to hold all those opinions?

ADropofReality
The opposition to No Outsiders came from homophobic religious bigots, not from a bunch of gender-critical feminists

The opposition to No Outsiders is from both homophobic religious groups and gender critical feminists. This has been discussed on here before. Much of the mainstream media likes to frame this as 'anti-LGBT' and smear us as homophobic, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Have you read the posts on this thread about the origins of No Outsiders and using ideas from queer theory in primary classrooms? Do you not find any of that disturbing?

"And posters saying “I just want kids taught the 3 R’s and nothing else” – so you think it’s OK if sexism and misogyny in children is perpetuated and not challenged? Or is it just anti-homophobia you object to?"

I think this comes down to, do you actually want freedom of thought and religion and conscience, or do you not? You really can't have it both ways with pluralism. Secularism is really just a kind of space, it has no values of its own, there is no such thing as a secular value that can be taught to everyone as if it's neutral. The closest thing is a shared value among people with various beliefs, be they religious or not. If you have significant controversy, it's tricky to claim something is a real shared value.

We are far too prepared to throw around the word bigotry as well. A different set of ideas about something are not necessarily bigotry. They might be really different, we might think their logic is flawed or disagree with their facts. We might even think they are incompatible with our societies ideals and can't be part of a functioning society, (though that idea in any context seems to be poo-pooed by progressive at the moment.) That doesn't make it bigotry any more than saying a man cannot become a woman is bigotry. That has become a term that is just used to avoid really responding to what people are saying.

I'm not sure how we became so uncomfortable with understanding the logic and thinking behind ideas that we may not embrace.

good grief. if something is invidious shite and also some homophobic people don't like it because of their homophobia, does that mean I'm not allowed to think it's invidious shite?

Goodness me, ADropof Misguided Feminists and Muslim bigots unite, is it? No Outsiders is one big love fest? All outsiders celebrated equally..

Or are both parties, perhaps legitimately, concerned about the welfare and the wellbeing of children?

I also think the fact that many Muslim women are housewives perhaps gave them more time and opportunity to challenge the content of the programme than others.

The Left was actually fine with Muslims when they were simply being homophobic; it’s only now they sense transphobia that they are shouting ‘Bigot!’

Since this program covers other topics like race, religion, age and disability as well as LGBT issues, it seems unlikely that children will be learning about gay or trans issues for more than one or two lessons a year, hardly enough time to somehow ‘convince’ a bunch of 7 year olds into becoming gay or trans, even if that was possible?
Since discussing LGBT issues in schools was illegal until 2003 under Section 28 (within close memory for many teachers), putting in place new programs that actively force discussion of LGBT issues in schools is actually incredibly necessary to change the culture within schools. Age appropriateness has been considered in the No Outsiders program, with kids learning about these topics through children’s books like ‘And Tango Makes Three’, a book about two gay penguins.
According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention (cdc.gov) nearly 30% of LGBT youth had attempted suicide, compared to 6% of their heterosexual peers. This can be reduced by “creating safe and supportive school environments for all students, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.” Surely learning about LGBT issues in school from a young age is the best way of letting children know that they are safe and supported?

The Muslim parents were concerned that No Outsiders claims it’s ok to be gay AND Muslim, which is likely at odd with what children are being taught at many Mosques.

If the primary age teaching stays at ‘some families have 2 mummies/2 daddies’ then there is no conflict, but the sad fact is, that children who grow up to be gay in conservative religious families may find themselves with some really heartbreaking decisions to make as adults. Complaints in north London have reportedly come from the Jewish community. Manchester complaints came from lots of religious groups, including Catholics.

This doesn’t mean schools shouldn’t teach that being gay is (rightfully) protected against discrimination under U.K. law, but it does mean it has to wait until kids have the capacity to balance a quite complex set of ideas and emotions. Teachers need adequate time to properly explore those ideas in the classroom, and appropriate training to support individual teenagers who are struggling with their emerging sexualities. 13 and up, I would imagine.
Familiarity with the views of the various cultural groups represented in the specific school seems crucial too.

It certainly shouldn’t be attempted at key stage 1 or 2, and via a bought- in set of teaching plans written by someone who has so little grasp of good safeguarding practice and equalities law that they have been fired for teaching material that had been explicitly rejected by the governing body.

Modern Britain is multicultural - no need to make life even harder for those kids who are negotiating two quite different worlds.

I’m an atheist so I personally think that all complaints made that originate from teachings of invisible sky pixies are nonsense, but religious beliefs are also protected in U.K. law, and escalating this conflict will only lead to further polarisation and fuck knows those closeted gay teens will suffer if they are removed from mainstream secular schools because their parents feel disrespected.

Wherever protected characteristics collide, we have to do proper impact assessments and proceed carefully and cautiously.

There has been little or no opposition on this thread to factual age appropriate teaching about the fact that some people are in same sex relationships KatTapilla. I suggest you go back and read the thread, as your post doesn't actually make much sense in the context of the discussion

Kat you need to read the article at the start of this thread - it’s an in-depth analysis of the actual No Outsiders material, and it really isn’t the accurate, even handed teaching of all the protected characteristics that we’d both like it to be :/

I have read the thread and the blog post which is being referenced. Trans children come under the LGBT banner and are at even more risk of suicide than other LBGT youth, surely they too deserve to feel safe and accepted in their school?

Someone wiser than me summed up a key problem with no outsiders materials on another thread (even before we came to learn its roots in queer theory which imho is not a suitable basis for a programme aimed at young kids - and there is no evidence that the programme over time has moved away from its roots in that theory).
The LG stuff is about telling children that other types families exist. Factual and another big deal - especially in the hands of a good teacher. The T stuff is telling children that their gender may not match their sex and so makes it about them as an individual. A good way to sow unease and dissatisfaction in a developing mind. Even a good teacher would struggle to get this across without spouting nonsense. Unnecessary and dangerous.

All children deserve to feel safe and protected in school. ALL children.

That’s why needs have to be carefully balanced, and equality impact assessments must be done.

"Teachers need adequate time to properly explore those ideas in the classroom, and appropriate training to support individual teenagers who are struggling with their emerging sexualities. 13 and up, I would imagine.
Familiarity with the views of the various cultural groups represented in the specific school seems crucial too."

Realistically, the chances are most school teachers are not prepared to teach in any real detail about the views on sexuality of various religions that they are not very familiar with. I'm not sure they really could be, or why they should be. Not to say it would not be good for teachers to have some familiarity, but chances are young people will have to learn those elements from parents and religious leaders.

being a gay child does not lead to drug prescriptions and surgery that can render you sterile. It does not endorse harmful sexist stereotypes.

Teaching transgender ideology as if it were established fact can lead to these things.

I would be very unhappy if transgender ideology were being pushed in my DCs schools.

In a school where 90% of the pupils are muslim I would expect teachers to have a good familiarity with the tenets of the faith

Trans children come under the LGBT banner and are at even more risk of suicide than other LBGT youth

Do you have statistics or a source for this?

Typo - 'another big deal' should read 'not a big deal'

That’s one short step away from paedophilia.

And one giant leap for manki...oh.

Fuck.

Trans children come under the LGBT banner and are at even more risk of suicide than other LBGT youth,

Not according to the figures I've seen.

Using the phrase "transgender ideology" makes it seem like being trans is some sort of political choice. Trans kids exist already, whether or not they see themselves represented in school lessons. Teaching kids that there is no wrong way to be a man or a woman is surely a good message for kids, trans or not - boys can wear pink, girls can play football etc.

Like it or not, it has an underlying ideology, which is what is being referred to here.

Trans kids are a recent invention, created to prop up autogynephilia in much older men. It's a recent phenomenon.

For those asking for statistics on trans suicide rates, crisisline.org says '40 percent of those identifying as transgender have attempted suicide in their lifetime.'

That doesn't correlate to "risk of suicide". Please don't misrepresent the truth with transactivist propaganda.