I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

[LesbianMeansSomething]

You know the No Outsiders programme which that gay teacher came up with all by himself to challenge homophobia in primary schools (and which just happens to promote a lot of the current transactivist ideology)?

Well, guess what? No Outsiders was a £575,435.85-funded project dating back to 2006, which this teacher and other individuals and groups such as Gendered Intelligence were involved in developing from the start.

What they were discussing is worth looking at for yourself: www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/ but, to quote the article:

"There is an air of unreality about all this. ‘At what cost do we deny children’s and teacher’s sexuality? What do we lose if desire and pleasure are banned from the classroom? What is the place of the research team members’ own bodies, desires and pleasures in this research?’ Reading these questions, you have to keep reminding yourself that the bodies in question are those of adults and the children aged 5 to 11 who are in their care to learn."

which is why it is sometimes useful to make a medical distinction between sex and gender identity

You do understand that most of the people you're talking to here are gender identity apostates, right? We don't believe there's any such thing as a "gender identity", innate or otherwise. We believe that there are personalities (largely innate) and sex stereotypes (social impositions).

One is a belief system of rationalism grounded in material reality.

The other is a belief system of metaphysics - a godless religion, as it were.

The rationalists among us do not want a metaphysical belief system taught in schools as though it was fact.

This program was evidently designed to make all children feel safe

It doesn't do a very good job then, since it teaches girls that it is wrong to assert boundaries or consider their needs for privacy and dignity as important. Tell me: which toilet should girls invite Tiny into again? Or be ashamed if they don't?

How odd, considering that a critical and urgent problem facing even primary schools at the moment is boy-on-girl sexual harassment and abuse.

No, KatTapilla the thread is concerned with the evolution of the programme, how it was devised, what the content is, what the agenda of the people/organisation behind the content is, how it is being taught, whether the some of the content is appropriate at all and whether it is being taught in an age appropriate manner.

You keep on about ONE book and are ignoring all the rest of the information being discussed about this programme on this thread. You keep saying that medical transition is not discussed as part of the programme - how do you know? Parents need to know exactly how this programme is being delivered to their children.

I also think that debating the more nuanced areas of being trans, such as different types of gender dysphoria, is a red herring.
The No Outsiders program is focused on presenting a very simplistic overview of a broad range of issues to children. Just as it doesn't claim to explain all the intricacies of issues such as race, it is not claiming to teach children all there is to know about gender. it's just starting the conversation. No matter how you feel about trans people, kids have a right to know that they exist. Trans people are already out in society, they are people's friends, people's relatives, kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is. Making it a taboo topic in schools only increases stigma around the subject.

kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is.

And what would that be then?

It is perfectly possible to identify with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth

Hi. Nobody is assigned a gender at birth. A tiny number of intersex people were assigned a sex at birth, but intersex people are still either male or female. Not one human has ever changed sex, this is impossible and teachers should not be lying to children about this. Intersex people have asked that their situation is not co-opted to be used to trans kids, so if you could respect that, thanks.

The No Outsiders program is focused on presenting a very simplistic overview of a broad range of issues to children.

Did you have a hand in writing it? Or do you teach it?

KatTapilla

Can you define exactly what you mean when you talk about 'being trans'? Just so that we can be sure we're all discussing the same thing.

kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is

Yes, well, the truth about that is a) nobody is born in the wrong body and it's damaging to and grooming of children to tell them that they are, b) adults transition mostly for one of two reasons - they have a deep and abiding desire to be the opposite sex resulting in significant distress (aka gender dysphoria) or they get off on it (aka AGP/paraphilia).

Which very few women here feel is an appropriate inclusion in the primary school curriculum.

To be honest guys, I am no expert on this program. Nor am I a trans person or an expert on being trans. Neither are you, I would suspect.

I have been trying to stand up for trans people in this thread because it seems to me that there is a lot of hostility towards them on this forum. Something that perhaps could be taken care of by educating children that different types of people are valid and we should respect others?? Just a thought.

At the end of the day, five lessons a year can't sway your child's beliefs as much as whatever you tell them every day.

I don't see hostility towards trans people on this forum, but it's unclear why children should be taught about 'being trans'. As Lang says, it's either a mental health condition (feeling that your perfectly healthy body is 'wrong'), or it's a fetish. Why do primary age children need to know about those things?

I find this following bit from the No Outsiders book very concerning as I think that it demonstrates a serious lack of empathy and understanding by Andrew Moffat.

Moffat mentions visit to the school by Gareth Thomas, the Welsh rugby international who tells a whole school assembly that he was also gay, Moffat then says

“Great – gay people are welcome in our school! There was one audible gasp from a child in year 6 but otherwise there was no reaction at all, which was quite nice as it demonstrated to the shocked child that he was alone in his reaction; his homophobia made him the outsider.’”

So in his book about No Outsiders Andrew Moffat labels a child both homophobic and an outsi

Oops... and an outsider on the basis of a gasp which could have been for any reason. I realise that Moffat did not label this child out loud. But the fact that he felt comfortable putting this in his book really does demonstrate a worrying issue which is that he is not attempting to understand the child or indeed any of the many reasons for a child's surprise. He is very quick to label a young child an outsider which is quite appalling to my mind.

kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is

Is this the thread? The one where we finally have it explained to us what being trans is, without the usual circular definitions and stereotypes?

At the end of the day, five lessons a year can't sway your child's beliefs as much as whatever you tell them every day.

Maybe or maybe not, but what about the children who are not getting daily clear-cut explanations from parents?

What about the children who are already confused about their boundaries, for example? How are their needs being safeguarded by a course that places kindness and inclusion to others above ensuring that a child is able to say "no, I am not comfortable" with sharing my (intimate) spaces with someone of the opposite sex?

How does a programme work which seems to rely somewhat on continued conversations between parents and children, when for many reasons this does not always happen?

ChickenonaMug I thought exactly the same when I read that. Labelling a child an outsider when the whole point is that there should be no outsiders. And as you say, the gasp might have simply been surprise, or anything - not necessarily homophobia.

So it's more 'No outsiders, unless you do or say something I disagree with, in which case you're the outsider'. How tolerant.

To be honest guys, I am no expert on this program. Nor am I a trans person or an expert on being trans. Neither are you, I would suspect.

The two key books by Andrew Moffat re 'No Outsiders' have some open access on Amazon:
www.amazon.co.uk/Outsiders-Our-School-Speechmark-Practical/dp/1909301728/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/Reclaiming-Radical-Schools-Andrew-Moffat/dp/1138564311/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

'No Outsiders' program website by Andrew Moffat:
www.equalitiesprimary.com/about-us.html

There is also a section with links and shared resources.
www.equalitiesprimary.com/resources.html

Despite being based around the Equality Act 2010 where sex is a protected characteristic, Moffat and many of the shared resources conflate sex with gender /gender identity.

From links, Moffat comments, 'Stonewall . Excellent resource, well worth keeping up to date with.'

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3516346-Compulsory-trans-lessons-in-primary-schools-what-will-this-involve

Yes - a programme entitled "No Outsiders" immediately gets defensive and snitty and outsidey when a small child reacts in a manner that is considered "Wrong" by this gender/anti-female orthodoxy cult.

We do need to guard against these, mainly, men.

oldcrone it really does demonstrate a lot of the hypocrisy doesn't it. The kindness, understanding and tolerance is only really important in one direction. Girls' boundaries are not important.

It really pisses me off that women and girls' boundaries etc are so disregarded and ignored.
Not just that, but women and girls are being actively taught and coached to put men first.

Fuck this shit.

Fuck this shit indeed.

I have noticed that FwR is becoming extra especially sweary of late.
Perhaps we have collectively banished a few more inner Beryls?

The only thing a 5 year old needs to know about gender is that no toy, no colour, no dressing up costume is just for boys or just for girls.

A PP wrote *What the TGT article makes clear is that programmes like this are propaganda, pure and simple.

We have to keep asking who benefits.*

Those who are grooming and abusing children will benefit greatly from any programme that confuses children about their bodies and their boundaries and their abilities to assert their boundaries.

Abusers will also benefit greatly from children who are taught that kindness and obedience are the most important things.

Abusers will benefit if young children are taught that sexual pleasure and desire are things that belong anywhere in their young lives. That conference should have never taken place and it should not be in the history of a course being taught to children today.

Educators must always look for the unintended consequences of the messages being given to, and received by, children.

Clear and factual information given to young children about their bodies, sex and boundaries will give them some power to protect themselves and express concerns.

Confusing messages which tell children that they must override their boundaries in order to be kind and inclusive, or which makes children unsure about their bodies, sex and sexual pleasure leaves children completely vulnerable to abusers. An abuser need only groom a child enough so that she feels partly responsible for what is occurring in order to ensure her feelings of shame and therefore her silence. A child who lacks understanding due to poor or dangerous education will often blame herself for her failure to recognise or prevent what has been happening to her. It is disgusting that it is abused children that will carry the shame of the failure to teach them to understand or assert their boundaries.

Safeguarding children is the most important thing.

And fuck this shit as well!

LGB is about accepting who people choose to love and loving and accepting yourself.

T is about sexist stereotyping and physically irreversibly changing your self to fit that stereotype.

This needs to be on a t shirt. Spot on.

And this

Spot on.