I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

[LesbianMeansSomething]

You know the No Outsiders programme which that gay teacher came up with all by himself to challenge homophobia in primary schools (and which just happens to promote a lot of the current transactivist ideology)?

Well, guess what? No Outsiders was a £575,435.85-funded project dating back to 2006, which this teacher and other individuals and groups such as Gendered Intelligence were involved in developing from the start.

What they were discussing is worth looking at for yourself: www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/ but, to quote the article:

"There is an air of unreality about all this. ‘At what cost do we deny children’s and teacher’s sexuality? What do we lose if desire and pleasure are banned from the classroom? What is the place of the research team members’ own bodies, desires and pleasures in this research?’ Reading these questions, you have to keep reminding yourself that the bodies in question are those of adults and the children aged 5 to 11 who are in their care to learn."

You do realise that "suicide rate" means actually completed suicides, right?

"In a school where 90% of the pupils are muslim I would expect teachers to have a good familiarity with the tenets of the faith"

Sure. I think though there is a real gap between knowing the tenants of a faith, and being able to give some real account of why they have that belief, how it fits into their theology. I think that would equally be true if it was a school that was 90% existentialists or something like that - it would be great to know where the families were coming from, but not so reasonable to expect teachers to really be able to teach the logic of the belief system.

To me, this suggests that what is done at schools has to kind of skirt the parental role.

Much as Mumsnet is right to oppose the trans agenda, the opposition to No Outsiders did not come from gender-criticial feminists or by anyone else concerned by the TRA agenda

Rubbish. It's been talked about on here many times - well before the Birmingham schools hit the headlines.

In the same way "murder rate" doesn't include attempted murders.

There was a lot of really excellent material associated with the original No Outsiders project, focusing on lesbian/gay families and on addressing gender stereotypes - I was friends with one of the participants in the project, and she shared some of the resources with me to use with my DDs (I'm a lesbian and they weren't getting any of the 'alternative families' thing at their school at the time). One of the activities she shared with me was a brilliant thing about how gender is constructed differently in other cultures, which really helped me explain to DDs how 'gender' keeps women in our place. I don't know about the entire programme, but I'm sad to see what looks like some good intentions and fantastic thinking and resources being co-opted by/lost to transgenderism.

And what's their source for that figure?

Although when I type in crisisline.org, there's no such website.

Kat - we are talking about the UK. CDC and crisisline are both organisations, regardless of how shaky your stats are.

I would too, Bernard - in fact, I would expect the school to have contact with local religious and/or community leaders.

Goosefoot - I don’t expect school teachers to know the exact teachings of every faith, just to be able to sensitively explain that contemporary laws and religious morality aren’t necessarily aligned.

Ideally, they’d be able to lead a class discussion around ethics, equality and religious beliefs, and the source material would be available to interested parents on request.

My sister teaches A level Sociology, which is pretty much entirely sensitive topics and cultural conflicts - but that’s 16 plus and an optional subject. Completely different to teaching infants, obviously!

kattepilla of course every child should be supported and welcomed. But we also need to be honest in what we tell our children. Specifically:

Gender stereotypes are outdated and you don’t need to conform to them, boys can wear skirts and girls can play football,

Not feeling comfortable with the behaviours stereotypically associated with your sex is fine, and doesn’t mean you were born in the ‘wrong body’,

You can present yourself any way you like, and difference is welcome,

No one can change their biological sex,

Single sex spaces help people feel safe and private,

Men can love men, and women women, that’s absolutely normal,

Your body is private, and what you do with it is up to you, there is no need ever to feel guilty about it,

You need to respect other people’s physical boundaries, because otherwise they won’t feel safe,

Make other people feel welcome even if they seem different, because we’re all special and valuable,

Modern medicine is great, but you don’t need surgery or medicine if your body is healthy and you just don’t conform, because that’s society’s problem, not yours.

That appears to be very different from what the no outsiders programme has been teaching. And what has the programme achieved? Dissent, anger, and a lot of parents who have lost their trust in their school, and in secular society more generally. It is a gigantic, dishonest, divisive own goal which has probably hugely set back the cause of gay rights in the very community it purports to serve.

Of course, a lot of what’s in the list above is only needed because of the disinformation that’s already out there, about changing sex and the need to conform to stereotypes. We shouldn’t need to tell our children they cant change sex any more than we have to tell them the sun doesn’t go round the earth.

I completely agree with you Victoria. I agree that not conforming with what is expected of your gender does not make you transgender. A boy can feel like a boy while wearing a skirt. And I agree you cannot change your biological sex. For example, some trans women still need to access services for biological men like screenings for prostate cancer, which is why it is sometimes useful to make a medical distinction between sex and gender identity.

OhhollyJesus -I’m
with you. I think schools are going way beyond their remit. Things like this just illustrate how underqualified they are to even try and get into all this at any age. Teach them school subjects, maths English biology re god forbid maybe a bit of art or even music! Even perhaps more than the 1 hour our lot get for p.e. I discuss anything else with my kids. They know about sex-
My kids have no use nor need for anything gender related at all. It serves no positive purpose. I also think it’s highly inappropriate for a teacher start talking about what their sexual persuasion is regardless of what it is- wtf ? Schools should be sticking to what they are good at. Because of the amount of worrying stuff like this I read I want to withdraw my children from lessons like this in school.

There is no screening for prostate cancer in the U.K.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/psa-testing/

You must be confusing the needs of transwomen with the needs transmen, Kat?

Transmen should consult with their GPs regarding screening programmes for women’s cancers.

It’s ludicrous to claim that conservative religious people believe that a gay boy is literally a girl. I’ve never heard of anyone believing that let alone being a common view. It’s just another desperate attempt to portray religious people as uneducated and backward and thereby dismiss their valid concerns about what their children are learning. Just as desperate as the
efforts to twist the words of the mothers quoted in the article to suggest any meaning other than the clear and obvious one.
Gc feminists and conservative religious people differ on many issues but I’m sure the vast majority of us agree on not wanting harmful attitudes and content, like the queer theory mentioned on this thread, in our kids’ primary schools.

I missed out the vital US word in that post - those are US organisations, not UK

The thing that pisses me right off is the trans rights activists comparing transphobia with homophobia.

It’s not the same at all. For a start, lesbians, bisexuals and gay men don’t need “affirmative” surgery or a lifetime of hormones.

“Affirmative” surgery is mutilation, and the people who prosper are (American) doctors and Big Pharma, who will make squillions from the lifelong hormone therapy needed by transgender folk.

I fear for the next generation of butch lesbians. I fear they will not exist.

Quietlife333 It's a well known and a sorry state of affairs that UK teachers are quitting, resources are stretched and funding is so non-existent that schools ask for loo rolls to be sent. I feel incredibly sorry for any teacher who is going to have to construct an age-appropriate lesson plan based on the No Outsiders programme that doesn't mislead or misinform young, impressionable and naturally curious minds. I personally would struggle answering the inevitable questions, I would be truthful and gender critical so could never do it without bias.

This is an absolute quagmire and it's not Damien Hinds or even the Headteachers who are going I have to wade through all this but the teachers who have to tack it on to whatever it is they are also doing. (I'm old and I don't know what happens now but it was my history teacher who taught the equivalent of PSHE classes and he told us about his wife's miscarriage and it was excruciating).

My son starts school next year and I'm absolutely terrified.

KatTapilla

This may be of interest with regard to that very often USA 40% suicide figure quoted. The original survey was analysed back in 2015;

4thwavenow.com/2015/08/03/the-41-trans-suicide-rate-a-tale-of-flawed-data-and-lazy-journalists/

Thanks for sharing that article. I have read it and it seems to be a very thorough analysis, making the case that medical FtoM transition did not alleviate gender dysphoria and therefore suicide attempts, meaning other alternatives to medical transition should be found. Although it argues the suicide attempt statistic may be more like 20 percent, it doesn't dismiss the fact that it still a worrying figure.

I think that we might be conflating the issues of medical transition, and the issue of being a trans person. It is perfectly possible to identify with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth, without taking hormones or undergoing surgery. Telling children that trans people exist is therefore not the same as promoting complex surgeries or hormonal treatments to them.
The NHS website describes the process of seeking help if you believe your child might be trans. It is a thorough process and involves recieving talking therapy and having extensive psychological assessments before being cleared for any physical treatment. I am not sure that reading a book in school about a boy who doesn't want to be a boy anymore is going to pressure children to go through this drawn out, complex process. It is more about making the school feel like a safe an inclusive space for those children who need the support already.

KatTapilla

Something else for you to read:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Suicidal ideation is actually significantly higher amongst high functioning autists - wonder why there are no comparable efforts to make school a safer and more inclusive space for those children?

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30162-1/fulltext

It is perfectly possible to identify with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth,

No-one is assigned a gender at birth and this nonsense should never be taught in any school at any age.

LGB is about accepting who people choose to love and loving and accepting yourself.

T is about sexist stereotyping and physically irreversibly changing your self to fit that stereotype.

Children need to know they're free to be themselves not a sexist stereotype and body mod with life long health implications.

The NHS website describes the process of seeking help if you believe your child might be trans. It is a thorough process and involves recieving talking therapy and having extensive psychological assessments before being cleared for any physical treatment

New here, are you?

This thread seems to be centred mainly on the concern surrounding medical transition. As the curriculum is based on children's books I would expect that medical transition is not discussed in the gender part of the program, if anyone can do research and prove otherwise then please do. Children in year 6 study the book 'My Princess Boy' which is about a boy who wears dresses and doesn't conform to society's expectations of him. He is not labelled as a trans woman and the boy who the book is based on does not identify as trans.
It seems that this book is therefore saying exactly what the people on this thread want children to know - that children should be free to be themselves.
This program was evidently designed to make all children feel safe and accepted, and to start conversions between children so from a young age they are confident and tolerant people. If parents feel uncomfortable with specific books being studied they should discuss with the school, but saying that gender issues should not be discussed at all is unfair to the children who may need support in this area.