What would you say to a man in the ladies’ toilets?

[Victoriapestis01]

Hi, I’ve asked this question on another thread so sorry for banging on about it. It has preyed on my mind.

I’d like to know what polite yet assertive response it is possible to give to a man using a women’s toilet in say, a shop, theatre or other public place. For instance: ‘ This is the womens toilet, could you please go elsewhere so I can use a single sex facility’?

I have myself been in the position of encountering a man, alone, in an open plan changing room. I frightened, embarrassed, undignified, intruded upon, and angry, and flung on my clothes in the locked toilet cubicle, then rushed off, leaving him alone in the changing room that said ‘women’ on the door.

Next time this happens I’d like to say something, but what? What would you say?

Work is of course a completely different issue. Any HR people on here, what can a woman say in this position without endangering her livelihood? (We’ve had guidance at work to the effect that men can use the women’s toilets if they feel female.)

Please note that I have deliberately not used the word transwoman in this post. If I meet a man in the ladies I will have no idea of how he classifies himself, or any interest in this question. I’ll just know he is a man. So that is what my question focuses on, men, as a biological class, whether bearded and in biker gear or coiffured and in make up, whether trans or non-binary identifying or anything else. Men, in the women’s toilet.

When it has happened to me it has been men who are clearly mistaken and look embarrassed when they realise their mistake.

Me too, and I've made the same mistake a few times and gone in the mens!

'Bloody hell, these new-fangled doorsigns confuse the hell out of me. We shouldn't be in here!'

Depends on the time and place:
The situations I would mind the most, are also the ones I would be least likely to say something.

Eg, busy public toilets in the daytime, or in a large workplace - I wouldn't care that much (but I know other women would). If I saw a man in there I would check that I was in the right place, and would probably let him know he was in the wrong one. If they looked like a transwoman, Im not sure if I would say something. Depends on their behaviour- if they just peeing I'd leave them to it. If they were hanging around, I'd tell security/a shop worker etc.

If, for example, I saw a man in a toilet at a train station, in the evening, when there weren't many people nearby I would not say anything.
I would try to get myself out of the situation as quickly as possible, and I would be very frightened.

What I absolutely would not do is trap myself in an enclosed space and pull my trousers down.
Can you really, hand on heart not understand why that is, Almondykess ?

You really don't understand why that particular scenario (quiet place, trousers down, trapped with man between you and the exit) is more threatening than encountering men in other situations? Really?

I'd smile and say I made your mistake and went into the Gents once.

Wouldn't bother me at all. I've nipped in the men's when there's been a huge queue for the ladies and none for the men's.

I really don't get the issue since they are all cubicles.

I'd probably assume I was in the wrong toilets and check the door, and then say "oh, sorry, I'll wait outside until you've finished"

Why dont you use the mens all the time if its not an issue toddler tea?

It's fairly common to see women using the men's toilets at large events, especially where quantities of alcohol are involved. It's usually treated as a bit of a joke. What's more surprising is that the women never seem intimidated. Quite the opposite in fact - it's usually the bolshy ones. I wouldn't be comfortable using the women's though, and only if it was an emergency and unoccupied.

I really don't get the issue since they are all cubicles

And there’s been a massive rise in covert filming in ladies loos. And it isn’t women smuggling cameras in and hiding them in cubicles. Now I’m old and ugly and if some loser wants to wank himself senseless at some poor quality footage of me taking a shite then fair enough. But I don’t speak for all women and if do actual violence (as opposed to the literal kind) if I ever caught someone doing that to my daughter.

I've nipped in the men's when there's been a huge queue for the ladies and none for the men's

Yep, I’ve done this loads. Groups of men in the men’s loos are not the problem. Men, collectively or individually are not the problem. It’s the nefarious boundary pushers that worry me.

I really don't get the issue since they are all cubicles.

You don’t get the issue even though two posters above have experienced males trying to push them into a cubicle? How wonderful it must be to be so naive.

Tralala lala I don't have any problem so you can't either! How wonderful it is to be me!

Can all those with DH/dp ask their fellas if they'd be happy wandering into a female changing area? Or toilet? All the decent males will be saying 'no way'. That's because decent males respect boundaries and don't like going round upsetting and frightening women.

The others, do, and don't care in the slightest at the response or fear. It's probably funny even they get off on it

If I was half dressed in a changing room and a male marched in I don't doubt for a minute I would scream, loudly!

The male swimming pool attendant who refused to do his job by reporting a male in the female changing area needs reporting as he didn't have to go in there himself, but there was already a male in there, so what does another who is making all aware that he is coming in,matter,if in order to eject the interloper?

Sprouts omg! That's hilarious! . The pooran that saw two women and left!

*poor man

I would assess the situation (doesn't take long) and if I felt threatened I would leave as soon as possible. I would not confront him in any way. I'm a confident person but I have my limits.

I would risk assess and then be all innocent/disingenuous and presume that they had made a mistake.

If they didn’t leave then I might stand outside and warn other women before they went in

And I don't mind men seeing me in a bikini on the beach

How is being seen wearing a bikini in a public mixed space full of people that you have entered knowing that it is a mixed space, in any way comparable to being naked to use a shower in a closed space, possibly with no-one but yourself and the man, in a space which is supposed to be single sex?

I'm struggling to see any similarities at all.

I wouldn't say a word. I'd leave, immediately, bearing in mind the frequently modelled and celebrated behaviour of being highly litigious, aggressive, mentally unstable and keen to threaten women that belongs to those driving the freedom of all men to access women any time, any place, any where, regardless of the effect on those women.

I would go straight to a member of staff, explain that I am not able to use a mixed sex space - so no good telling me a lot of glittery burble about inclusivity and female brains growing male bodies in the womb, it's not relevant - and where please can they direct me to a single sex space or a single user floor to ceiling cubicle. You know, like the ones The Mordaunt lied about being a requirement during the MN 'chat' debacle. And point out that they are, by not providing and signposting this, excluding women of faiths, cultures, disabilities, exercising their human right to privacy and beliefs, and have they heard of the Equality Act? The actual one. Not the fictionalised version.

It's going to be by refusing to co operate, continually going to staff and pointing out the problem and asking for a solution that we get third spaces.

I'm afraid I wouldn't make a scene there and then BUT I certainly would mention to appropriate person eg. staff/security. Who will probably say they can't do anything unless something specific happened but the more who speak up the more awareness there will be. Thats been my experience every time, including when my DD was quite scared when this happened at a holiday park, security spoke to the man but were powerless to do anything as he 'only' used the toilet.

I came across a man in the womens the other day. In a twin set and pearls, with bobbed wig, but clearly a man.

First time i was on my way out as they entered and it took me a moment after readjusting my gaze from eye level to two foot higher. They seemed as suprised as me as we were in a little used toilet on the top floor. Second time they came in after me as I went in the cubicle, stood for a couple of seconds, then left.

I didn’t feel in danger as such- to get in our building you need several million security checks. But i did wonder why, and feel a bit self conscious- the second time i didn’t pee til i heard them leave. There are multiple accessible individual toilets for either sex on each floor, so i don’t know why they didn’t use them.

Neither time I felt able to challenge. I do work for a very woke organisation though so it would likely be me in trouble for not accepting awaw.

That's because decent males respect boundaries and don't like going round upsetting and frightening women.

Yes, all those giggling that they don't see a problem, menz are lovely.... I belong to a lone campers FB group, people who like the time and space to be alone. The group admin has just had a major issue with sexual harassment and threatening behaviour from men stalking the board, posting sexual stuff all over women's threads about what they'd like to do to those women if they found them in a tent alone, and men actually trying to discover the location of women users camp sites to target them.

Menz would all be sweeties in women's facilities? Don't be so bloody stupid, and stop throwing other women under the bus.

The problem with confronting individuals, aside from the ones like personal safety which have been mentioned, is that it's in effect making it YOUR problem ie I have a problem with you being in the ladies when you're not.

It's actually the building owner/manager or whoever is responsible for allocating facilities. It's THEM who are breaking the law by not providing single sex toilets etc. It's up to them to intervene when facilities are not being used appropriately.

So I would always address my complaint to the most senior person I could, either at the time and followed up with an email or just by email.

And I would focus on how their institution is breaking the law, rather than the fact that I felt uncomfortable.

It depends on the situation

When I was a teenager I knew a woman with an endocrine disorder who was about 6'6" tall, skinny with large hands and feet and who was always challenged in ladies toilets by angry women who thought she was a man.

She was a married woman and used to get extremely distressed by how often people accosted her in the streets and pretty much everywhere she went and accused her of pretending to be a woman. During the 2 years or so that I knew her she was physically assaulted by strangers, usually men, a number of times.

If the man is clearly a man, and it is not always easy to tell, I would let him know that he was in the ladies.

There is a difficult and complicated issue here as some younger MtF trans people "pass" as women without anyone batting an eyelid.

I have probably shared ladies toilets with such people on countless occasions.

Would I chase a "transitioning" MtF trans person who was just wanting to use the toilets out of the ladies? Probably not. I would only cause a fuss and kick him out if he was acting in a predatory / unsafe way.

I have seen MtF trans people use separate cubicles in ladies toilets before and they have always kept their head down and quickly entered the cubicle, had a wee, washed their hands and left quickly and quietly. If I was alone in a ladies loo with someone like that I wouldn't do or say anything.

If he was forced to use the men's toilets while dressed as a woman he could likely be assaulted. I would probably just hang around by pretending to examine my teeth in the mirror to protect anyone involved from being harassed or assaulted.

FWIW I think that these situations are very difficult.

Women and girls need single sex toilets to feel safe and and "transitioning" (I really hate that word) MtF people should not be forced to use the men's toilets when they are dressed as women as it puts them at risk of sexual and violent assault.

I think a mixed / gender free toilet option in the way forward, while retaining single sex toilets also.