What would you say to a man in the ladies’ toilets?

[Victoriapestis01]

Hi, I’ve asked this question on another thread so sorry for banging on about it. It has preyed on my mind.

I’d like to know what polite yet assertive response it is possible to give to a man using a women’s toilet in say, a shop, theatre or other public place. For instance: ‘ This is the womens toilet, could you please go elsewhere so I can use a single sex facility’?

I have myself been in the position of encountering a man, alone, in an open plan changing room. I frightened, embarrassed, undignified, intruded upon, and angry, and flung on my clothes in the locked toilet cubicle, then rushed off, leaving him alone in the changing room that said ‘women’ on the door.

Next time this happens I’d like to say something, but what? What would you say?

Work is of course a completely different issue. Any HR people on here, what can a woman say in this position without endangering her livelihood? (We’ve had guidance at work to the effect that men can use the women’s toilets if they feel female.)

Please note that I have deliberately not used the word transwoman in this post. If I meet a man in the ladies I will have no idea of how he classifies himself, or any interest in this question. I’ll just know he is a man. So that is what my question focuses on, men, as a biological class, whether bearded and in biker gear or coiffured and in make up, whether trans or non-binary identifying or anything else. Men, in the women’s toilet.

jacky very unfortunately I don’t think they are breaking the law. The law’s starting point in the EA 2010 is that there should not be same sex spaces, in that these are a manifestation of different treatment and therefore discriminatory. However, Schedule 3 permits exemptions: a service provider can provide single sex spaces if it wants to do so (and if the conditions are satisfied).

Unfortunately, it is entirely up to service providers to make up their own minds about this. Which is the source of the problem. So the man in the toilet can simply say, no, I’m allowed to be here. There is no requirement by law for service providers of the type I had in mind to provide single sex toilets, and not all of them will choose to do so, even if they pretend to do so by putting ‘ladies’ on the door. (I think the position is different for schools and employers, though.)

The position of course is complicated by the fact in many cases the man won’t be honest enough to say that: instead, he’ll claim he actually is a woman.

That’s my take on Schedule 3, anyway, unfortunately. Happy to be corrected.

So really, assuming this is right, what I’d want to get across to the man is: you’re not a woman, you’re not wanted here, you’re being intrusive and out of order, and if you had a shred of dignity or decency you’d bugger off. I’m not convinced there is a legal redress available (though agree there should be).

This is the women's toilets. That is all I would say as I would assume it is a mistake. I have by mistake went into the men's toilets.

“Excuse me, you’re in the wrong toilet. The Gents is next door.” Delivered with firm Paddington stare.

^ This.

I'd say...
Ooops sorry! I thought this was the ladies
And exit with my best flounce.

man came in with this daughter. I confronted him and asked him what he was doing. He insisted he was in the right, he was changing his daughter!!

This man is acknowledging he doesn't want his daughter changing around exposed strange men. So he inflicts himself, a strange man, on other parents' naked kids.

The men know, don't they, what a high likelihood of predatory attitudes there are amongst their sex.

The men know, don't they, what a high likelihood of predatory attitudes there are amongst their sex.

Yes because they are privy to the “locker room” talk. Those “banter” conversations men have when there are no women around. They take part in those conversations, laugh along, maybe crack a joke or share a story of their own, they listen to all their mates and they all work out which one is an actual scumbag who has assaulted women. And they carry this knowledge around with them whilst pretending we’re being over dramatic by insisting no strange men are around us when we are naked.

I strongly disagree that men should be 8n women's changing rooms changing girls. If you don't want to take your girl into a male changing room, it is up to you to come up with solutions that do not bother anyone else.
I am disabled and can not change in the tiny cubicles, just not possible 8n that space. But I don't want to change in front of man either.

I know exactly what I'd say as it happened to me. Well not a toilet, but a lingerie fitting room queue of about 8 women and teen girls. We all said nothing at all. But we all looked at each other briefly catching each others eyes questioningly, before staring silently at the floor.

Honestly, I wouldn’t say anything. I’d just leave.

If I were to confront this hypothetical man, i have no idea how to tell in advance the difference between a man who’d just apologise and leave, or a man who’d react aggressively.
And I’m not willing to take that risk with my safety if I’m alone in a private enclosed space with an unknown male, who will almost certainly be larger and stronger than me.

Barracker That was interesting reading - particularly the use of pronouns and the judge’s final remark. It shows how things have changed since 1999.

And yes, safety first.

I would not openly confront a man in an enclosed space, especially if no-one else was around. And these videos on Youtube of transwomen kicking off at some perceived slight on their womenhood often show them frothier and more entitled than the average male.

I think I’d just play dumb, say, “oh” and then conspicuously check the door sign. And look very puzzled.

In the spirit of the board...

I squeaked, grabbed my items and left! Told the woman on the door there was a man in the womens changing rooms and threw my bundle of clothes at her and scurried off.

Found a manager who explained in a very patronising voice that it was ok hun, cos it was a transwoman... I shall never shop at NEXT again! And yes, I did email and tell them so!

Next time 9and I am assuming there will be a next time) I will be a little bit more assertive!

"Excuse me, but this is the ladies toilet".

" But i identify as female"

", Maybe, but it doesn't mean that you actually are female. And most women feel an instinctive discomfort when presented with a man in what is meant to be a private women's space".

" But I feel instinctive discomfort when I go into the male toilets"

"Couldn't you use the disabled toilet, then?". I think it would be good for trans people to campaign for third spaces. That way everyone would feel comfortable". It's not fair to place this burden onto women"

My local branch of John Lewis has, for years, had a discrete changing cubicle in the women's changing rooms - at the opposite end of the bay, for the few trans-women that have been regular customers for years, and who, apparently, spend a lot of money on women's clothing.

How is it signed just? So that women know it isn’t for them and transwomen know it is for them?

Same as the first response, if he didn't look shocked like he'd made a mistake and didn't leave immediately, I'd leave and find a member of staff.

How is it signed just? So that women know it isn’t for them and transwomen know it is for them?

It isn't signed. The staff must know who their 'regulars' are, and can most likely instinctively tell, anyway -and just guide them into the two cubicles at that end of the bay. They are quite distinctly placed - with the service desk separating them from the rest of the cubicles.

I know about this because I asked the changing room staff what their procedure was.

Said nothing but confirmed when he asked if he was in the wrong toilet then laughed when he nearly fell trying to run out and then reassured him I wasn't upset when o saw him outside and he apologised profusely. But tbf I knew he was most likely just a man rather than a trans woman also I heard him come in from my cubicle and start peeing standing up without closing the door

I know someone who takes his little girl in the women's toilet because he doesn't want her in the men's because "they are dirty", he doesn't care that he shouldn't be in there and he definitely looks like someone you wouldn't want to question (big, tall, tattooed). If I saw him do it I would call him out but I can understand why you'd walk out again.

The only time I have ever encountered a man in the women’s toilet was when one followed me in and blocked me into a cubicle. Thankfully he scarpered when another woman walked in. My response was to freeze and shut down, as is my standard response to fear. I was struck for quite a while by the horror of ‘what could have been’.

When it has happened to me it has been men who are clearly mistaken and look embarrassed when they realise their mistake. If I ever felt the man was threatening or otherwise unsafe I would leave and find someone in charge to alert them. If it was someone trying to pass as a woman and not threatening/unsafe then I probably would carry on and ignore them. I appreciate that not everyone would agree with this, and nor do I think everyone should agree.

I'd report them, for sure.

I once had a narrow escape coming out of a mixed-sex toilet in a bar, I was coming out, as some huge bloke was coming in, he clocked, and I clocked, that there was no one else around, he started pushing me back into the loos, then I, fortunately, ducked and dived between him and the wall and got out..

I always go to the loos with my mates now.

I went to the men's toilet in a busy pub once when I was in my early 20s. The queue for the ladies was out the door. It was either that or have wee on the floor of the pub. No-one said anything. I just marched in, peed, and marched out again.

I just thought, "I'm a human being with a desperate need to use the nearest toilet facilities available" and so I went with that.

I like to think that I'd say "Excuse me, you're in the wrong loos" but it depends on how threatening they look, or if I have the children with me, might just leave then.

I have often wondered what I would do if a man was in my space. I found out last week when my friend and I were trying on clothes in a changing room.

We had come out of the cubicle to show each other our outfits, we were chatting when a man walked in and went into one of the cubicles. My friend was horrified and so was I. I decided that I wasn't going to be intimidated but that I would complain once I came out. We continued to try our clothes on, chatting loudly now. At this point another man came in. He saw us and immediately went back out. Another man came in and went into a cublicle.

There's now two men in there and I was more than pissed off. I ranted to my friend through the cubicle that men don't miss a beat to get into women's spaces and how ridiculous it was, and how I would never shop here again. I gathered up my things and angrily came out of the cubicle. There was a male member of staff stood at the entrance looking stern.Fantastic, I thought, he must know they're in here. I informed him there was two men in there and he replied "This is the men's. You need to get out".