FFS lesbians are not the same threat to women.

[KennDodd]

I see this a lot in threads about transwoman or men having access to women and women's spaces. It came up on the thread about male midwives. men are generally (almost always) bigger and stronger than women and commit violent crime at a level many times greater than women (even lesbians ) do. Men are a threat to women, lesbians] are no greater threat than any other woman.

And, I know, most men are lovely, I'm married to one.

While the overwhelming majority of sexual crimes are committed by men, the extent to which crimes committed by women is, in my experience massively under-reported.

If you are interested in checking out the way in which women abuse women and children you have only to start researching cults and you will discover a world of sexual abuse that it horrifying and shocking.

Just one example
www.nytimes.com/2019/04/08/nyregion/nxivm-allison-mack.html

there are many others

I am very tired of woke types bringing out "but what about lesbians!", as if any lesbian out for more than five minutes isn't already exhausted by the tide of "predatory lesbian" stereotypes that are all over the public depictions of lesbianism.

Can lesbians ever be predatory? Yes, of course. So can straight women. So can bi women. However, are lesbians - or straight women or bo women - any kind of comparable threat than men are? Fuck no. To pretend otherwise is some seriously ignorant, regressive nonsense.

Fuck those homophobes.

Joystir I think the point is not that a woman can't be a lesbian now if she has in the past had sex with men, people travel all sorts of paths to get where they are.

The point is that if you say you are a lesbian now and are attracted to people with penises then you aren't as a lesbian as the definition of a lesbian is a female homosexual. To say you are a lesbian while liking a bit of cock is to redefine the word lesbian, as NOT meaning female homosexual, and there is no longer a word for female homosexual. Oh apart from "vagina fetishist" etc.

By the way it's not women who came up with the concept of gold star lesbian, it's men, who are obsessed with the idea of sticking their dicks in women who haven't had a dick stuck in them before. Which incidentally is an attitude which causes inordinate amounts of harm to girls and women (cunty) every day.

"As a class, men are violent towards women children and other men. As a class, women, including lesbians are not. "

Where did you get this from?

Women abuse children a fair amount.

The thing we genuinely don't seem to be interested in is sexual abuse, that really does seem to be a very very male thing to do.

MRAs have long tried to argue that

Women are just as bad as men if not worse
Women sexually abuse men all the time and rape them, children too, but it's highly under reported. In fact we may do it more than men but we are protected

There are massive overlaps with these ideas and the ideas that are being pushed from another direction.

To accuse homosexual women as a group of behaving like sexually predatory men is as old as the hills and is a highly homophobic statement. It is something that MEN have done. Homophobic misogynist men.

Good to see it recycled to support trans ideology.

I suppose the people who think lesbains behave like men when it comes to sex are generally men.

Who seem to have no idea of the levels of everyday harassment and worse that girls and women are subjected to from puberty onwards, all the fucking time. From MEN.

It's also a misogynist thing. Many men don't really see women as full people who are different to men. They see us only in relation to them. And sex is hyper important to them. So, woman who fancies women is like a man, and therefore must be creepy and predatory. Which says a lot about how they see themselves. Men know what men are like.

Hooda If a woman says she is a lesbian, but that her lesbianism includes attraction to tw, she is not a lesbian. Lesbian women (adult human females) are defined by their lack of attraction to members of the male sex.

FYI I was married, to a man. I grew up in a homophobic environment and never knowingly encountered a lesbian until I was 30. Throughout this time I never called myself a lesbian, wouldn’t even let the thought enter my head in fact, even though I only ever felt attraction towards women. I have been an out lesbian for 6 years, and my lack of attraction to male people has continued throughout this time. If I developed a crush on a man tomorrow then I’d have to have a rethink, but as the last 25 years since I hit puberty haven’t yielded any man crushes yet I can say with some degree of certainty that I am a lesbian.

Lots of lesbians have relationships and marriages to men and come out in later life, that doesn’t mean they aren’t lesbians. We could have a discussion about who, and under what circumstances a female can call herself lesbian, and the pressures she might face to reject or renounce her lesbianism and the ways in which she might realise and come to terms with her sexuality, but that is a million miles off the topic of this thread so you’d have to start another if you feel you’d like to.

Coming back to the point of this thread, there is no amount of examples you could give me of women, lesbians, being sexually violent where I couldn’t give you a thousand more of men doing worse. Here we have a thread of women saying that in their experience men are far more of a threat, and of the less than a handful of women who say they have been or felt threatened by other women, at least one seems to have displayed Goldsmiths levels of confusion on other threads about the difference between males and females so that can be discounted as unreliable evidence, not that impiracle evidence is even necessary when official stats, and indeed the very need for single sex spaces does all that work for us already.

HTH

It is so disrespectful to lesbians who have massively disproportionately to their numbers promoted and protected the rights of women and girls

This .

It is so disrespectful to lesbians who have massively disproportionately to their numbers promoted and protected the rights of women and girls
this

Oh dear.

I came on as the first out lesbian in a weirdly deifying yet stereotyping discussion about lesbians

I talked about my personal experiences of sexual assault and was shouted down

I gave evidence on the issue of violence in LGBT people's relationships aand was ignored

LangCleg doubts the veracity of my lesbianness because she assumes that because I argue against trans exclusionary rhetoric that my female partners might be trans women (for the record, they weren't)

I love the comment about heterosexual women sleeping with the enemy. Touché.

This should help

so what's your point Skyzalimit? are you saying that lesbians pose a similar risk to other women that men do?

"I gave evidence on the issue of violence in LGBT people's relationships and was ignored"

Well you weren't on this bit, loads of people responded to it, I remember as I did.

Can't speak to the rest without going and re-reading.

Have read your posts quickly.

Your first post was to say that you have experienced DV in relationships with women. I am sorry to hear that. Plenty of research backs up that prevalence of DV in gay/lesbian relationships is similar to het.

DV isn't by any means the only form of violence women experience from men and the thread is about wider behaviours.

The thread is about men being allowed to access womens spaces, in general.

When it comes to public creepy / pervy behaviour, men really do do this to an extraordinarily disproportionate level. Even to the point that films and TV shows of bygone years would show men spying on women as a bit of a lark...

And it starts when you're so young. It's shit.

To deny the absolute overwhelming fact that the vast majority of pervy / weirdy behaviour in public is perpetrated by men, why would anyone do that?

Rape and sexual assault is about power, not sex. Men are raised/encouraged to dominate. They have power issues. Men don't rape and assault due to attraction but due to power issues (any attraction is secondary to power issues). That people think our discomfort with men in space is due to their attraction to women are off their heads. Lesbians are no more a threat to women than straight women are to men. Danger is not in attraction, it is in patriarchy and the grabbing and abusing of power by men.

Good post socfem19

Read the beginning of the thread. People were saying lesbians dont do sexual assault.

Of course men are more likely to do it. But please don't make assumptions about some innate lesbian holiness to justify anti trans arguments.

Are there any records of lesbians committing the type of stranger sexual assault and assault that men commit - lesbian voyeurs, lesbians flashers, lesbian gropers, lesbian sexual assault, lesbian muggings? I don't think there are, are there Skyzalimit? The first post says that lesbians pose no more risk than any other woman (i.e. very low). That's correct isn't it?

Sexual perversion is a feature of the human male psyche and male behaviour, not female. Because of these perversions men pose a risk to women and girls.

Lol @ skyzalimit being the only 'out lesbian' on the thread because she began her posts with "Lesbian here."

No one is claiming lesbians are holy. Just that, because they are women, they are no more of a risk factor than any other women when comparing the risk factor of men.

But, as an out lesbian, you keep right on pulling for other women to start mistrusting lesbians if you really want to. I mean, I don't implicitly trust all lesbians. I can think of some I consider to be really unpleasant sorts who abhor other women. Funny old world.

Of course men are more likely to do it. But please don't make assumptions about some innate lesbian holiness to justify anti trans arguments.

Noone did that though. And the arguments are not anti trans. Its not anti trans to acknowledge that male people as a group are a large danger to female ones as a group. It would be utterly ridiculous to claim no lesbian ever did anything wrong (though funnily enough we are meant to believe no male would do anything wrong in a female space, despite there being many bexamples of exactly this), but when you compare female violnce to male violence, female violence is virtually non-existant. Why some seem to want to deny/minimize this, I don't kno, but its really quite clear.

There's no equivalent female version of autogynephilia. It's purely a man thing.

women can also behave inappropriately towards others

Of course we can, but this thread is pointing out that Lesbians don't pose a threat to women where as men can and do.

I've done that thing again where I think I've clicked on seeing 100 posts so I'm reading the last post, but I haven't and I'm not. I always start reading these too late at night.

There is a bogus claim, made by transmen and lesbian trans allies, that they have been bullied and ejected out of female spaces. I see it on blogs (for instance on the blog by Jess Bradley's former wife Sarah McCulloch).

It has always baffled me but I got a chance to explore it with a couple of lesbian friends who made the claim. Apparently it happened "all the time" so they could understand how transwomen felt about horrible cis women excluding them from spaces. That's why laws were needed, they said.

"Tell me about the last time this happened to you", I asked.

They told me about incidents in school toilets.

"Has any adult woman bullied you into leaving?" No, was the reply, but there had been catty looks that made them feel uncomfortable.

What they described was wholly different to the image of the non-conforming woman being bullied, assaulted and targeted by other women just for being 'masculine' lesbian or trans.

"Tell me about the last time", is my go-to question to people who make claims about victimisation.