FFS lesbians are not the same threat to women.

[KennDodd]

I see this a lot in threads about transwoman or men having access to women and women's spaces. It came up on the thread about male midwives. men are generally (almost always) bigger and stronger than women and commit violent crime at a level many times greater than women (even lesbians ) do. Men are a threat to women, lesbians] are no greater threat than any other woman.

And, I know, most men are lovely, I'm married to one.

I think it is ludicrous to say that women, of any sexual orientation, are never guilty of making unwanted sexual advances, to either other women or men

Lucky nobody here is saying that. We are talking about risk assessments based on both stats and personal experience. Those above talking about their own experiences aren’t saying it never ever happens, it is incredibly rare though & most women don’t feel physically threatened by other women.

Sexual attraction has nothing to do with physical sexual assaults. Power, entitlement and uncontrolled rage are bigger factors.

I’m sure it IS possible for women to behave in a sexually aggressive manner, act violently etc but personally I’ve never come across it.
Between the ages of around 12 and 30 i experienced such behaviour from men on a regular basis
So, for that reason I have no issue with Lesbians in women only spaces ( plus they are actually women) and I would not want a gay man in them. It’s based on their biological sex, not their sexual preference

Sexual attraction has nothing to do with physical sexual assaults. Power, entitlement and uncontrolled rage are bigger factors.

I agree. Which is why people objected to it on the thread referred to in the OP - any threat is not down to sexual attraction and if you believe it is surely that applies to anyone who is sexually attracted to women.

That's what people were trying to say - sexual attraction isn't the issue.

And, On a purely practical level, how would you know if a woman is a lesbian or not? We can tell if a man is a man, because well men look, sound, move and smell like men, but how would one know if a woman is a lesbian unless she tells you. Are you going by hair length, or number of tattoos, or the presence or absence of makeup? That all sounds rather ridiculous and stereotypey, and extremely prone to error. So basically advocating for a hierarchy of women, where only the most feminine presenting of women are acceptable. I can’t see any issues with that at all, can you?

And where do the lesbians go? What about femmes?

Whatisthisfuckery

Is that addressed to me?

My point is that who you are sexually attracted to has no bearing on what job you do, regardless of your sex.

If you are a sexual predator then that is the issue not who you are attracted to.

I don’t see why TRAs are pushing this argument as, if true, it would mean trans-lesbians are twice the threat, being both male bodied and lesbian.

The prisons are not full of lesbian women - they are full of male sexual predators.

But the majority of male sexual predators are outside prison - because they haven't been caught, haven't been given custodial sentences, or have done laughably light sentences and let out.

Our culture also continues to promote non reporting and non prosecution of male sexual offenders.

Littlechristmasmouse Not true.

Paedophiles like to proximate themselves with children. They’ll often do so through their career.

I have a friend who says she was aggressively pursued/approached by a lesbian woman in a gay club who frightened her and made her feel very threatened) - followed her into toilets and a corridor, blocked her physically from moving etc.... But I have to say that's the only incident like that I've ever heard about.

Paedophiles like to proximate themselves with children. They’ll often do so through their career.

Exactly. That's why the priesthood, boarding schools etc became such a magnet and haven for them. Access and unquestioned authority.

Tinkoschminko

But they are criminals.

I am differentiating here between criminals and simply accusing someone only based on who they are sexually attracted to - which is what some posters were accusing male hcps of.

I am not talking about those concerned about offenders but those only rejecting male hcps on the basis that they were attracted to women.

That isn't logical to me.

The threat isn't attraction, it's more like attraction plus entitlement. Not even assault, but just men who feel they have the right to ogle or comment.

I would be perfectly comfortable with all women, irrespective of sexual orientation and probably with effeminate, gay men. I'm not saying that my comfort should inform policy as obviously other women feel differently. However, I think a lot of women put TW in this category of safe men, don't know about the new wave of AGPs, and this is one of the reasons women say they are happy to share.

Which is why people objected to it on the thread referred to in the OP

I think there was one comment like that on that thread that several other posters kept on about in an attempt to derail. The OP here is not just talking about that thread, which also included other comments relating to lesbians that were not a response to anyone else.

but those only rejecting male hcps on the basis that they were attracted to women.

Which wasn’t the majority or even close to it on the thread you keep referring to. Most do not reflect Male hcps for that reason, so it’s really not that relevant here, or on that midwifery thread.

They’re criminals by default of their sexual attraction. Their preference is to prey on young, vulnerable individuals in society. The two are so interweaved that they can’t be drawn apart. It’s actually very relevant to the male violence we’re opposing in female only spaces.

It is so disrespectful to lesbians who have massively disproportionately to their numbers promoted and protected the rights of women and girls.

This. Many sexual and domestic violence projects that primarily support heterosexual women were started and are staffed by lesbians.

I have never been sexually assaulted or harassed by a lesbian. Whereas I have been by numerous males. Hence it's males I don't want in my toilets or changing rooms.

I have had some unpleasant experiences with lesbians, but I wasn't afraid of them. Just annoyed and angry. I think that the fact that you know that you have a better chance if it comes to a fight makes it less frightening. Also though they very a bit too assertive and not very good at taking no for an answer, they didn't ooze agression, like so many men do.

I'm 44.

My first experience of sexual assault was at 10 years old. In the intervening years, I have been: threatened with rape on public transport for ignoring the young man who was aggressively hitting on me from another seat; touched inappropriately by strangers; coerced into sex with threats of rape (so, no choice basically); raped; escaped from a rape attempt; received vile sexually threatening phone calls from a stranger; had sexual comments shouted at me... I could go on. When I was in my early 20s, I was sexually assaulted by a group of boys of around 15 years of age and felt utterly helpless because I couldn't even 'fight back' given their age.

Two years ago, I was hit on by a lesbian in a gay club. I tried to turn her down politely and she did become somewhat sexually aggressive I gave her a firm, "no, thanks. Not interested" and she asked if I were straight. I said I was and she apologised and backed off with a, "ah right, sorry, just assumed, you know..." I did know. I was in a gay club. It wasn't a huge leap of imagination for her to assume I was also gay.

I was really nervous at the time because my experience of being hit on in clubs and turning the person down has been pretty negative. It was only a while later that I realised the only reason I anticipated a negative reaction from her was because she was because of my experience of men.

She responded like a woman.

I have never, ever turned down a man in a pub and had him immediately back off and apologise.

I am not concerned that a woman will find me attractive any more than I am concerned that a man will find me attractive.

I am concerned that a man might become aggressive or sexually violent because, on many, many occasions, they have.

Do I think that all men are like that? Of course I don't. I have a son and a boyfriend and my closest friend is male. But I judge men, as a class, by their behaviour, as a class. If men don't want women to perceive them, collectively, as a threat, then men, as a class, need to stop being a threat.

But that is why I also do not want males in female spaces.

I don’t see why TRAs are pushing this argument as, if true, it would mean trans-lesbians are twice the threat, being both male bodied and lesbian.

Good point. Though TRAs do not think 'lesbian males' are actually lesbian, as they are male (hence 'transbians' not wanting other male lesbians, they want female ones oddly enough though female lesbians are not allowed to say they want femaleds because transphobia). So I can see why they slip up with arguments like this. They forget that they are meant to be a part of the very group they are claiming are dangerous pervy people who are at least on par with, if not worse than men

It's lesbophobic and it revives the old trope that lesbians are somehow men and thus predatory. Every time trans women pick out a group of women experiencing other oppressions to justify their entry into our spaces, they reduce the women they are using to male-like. It's not on.

Not relevant to the midwifery debate, but when it comes to toilets and changing rooms, the obvious unassailable difference is that lesbians have been using those spaces all along. Nothing has changed, coming out doesn’t suddenly render one predatory, and there has never been a problem.

I’m finding parts of this discourse quite othering towards lesbians. Lesbians are women, no more or less than straight women.

Lesbians deal with sexual harassment from men, just like other women do. They are also pressured to recognise trans women as potential sexual partners or be called “transphobic bigots..” they have enough to deal with, without being co-opted into silly analogies.