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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Possible Jordan Peterson webchat on MN

476 replies

GeordieGenes · 08/04/2019 14:44

If you go over to site stuff, MN are asking posters if they would like a webchat with Jordan Peterson! The thread is pretty negative, but I think it would be great to ask him about gender critical issues. He's one of the only Canadian voices we have!

If you think this would be good, please go and say so on the thread! Smile

OP posts:
Furrytoebean · 09/04/2019 11:20

He isn't reinforcing the patriarchy - indeed he is against tyranny of all types

Except he doesn't see the patriarchy as a tyranny, he sees it as the natural order of things.
In fact he doesn't believe it exists.

Furrytoebean · 09/04/2019 11:21

Come on... we never get gender critical people on web chats! I really hope MN let him on!

He's not gender critical!!!!

mooncuplanding · 09/04/2019 11:21

From everyone except for Hannah Arendt.
Or is the actual rule: Learn from everyone (but if it was a woman who taught you, don't credit her).

There are plenty of men he doesn't listen to as well! I think its really easy to point out a few women he doesn't listen to, but he the reality is, is that he is quite arrogant and ego driven and certainly distills and simplifies research to suit his needs and ignores many many counter arguments. But ONLY accusing him of sexism is so easily defended by him, the webchat would be easily 'won' by him and to be clear, he will be out to win!

Endofthedays · 09/04/2019 11:21

My worry about him coming on is that a whole load of mras will flood the thread with ladybrain questions, and there will be no opportunity to get answers on areas he knows more about.

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:21

Come on... we never get gender critical people on web chats! I really hope MN let him on!

Well, considering that JP is the polar opposite of gender critical, he should be a shoo in then.

WeRiseUp · 09/04/2019 11:23

I think it would need to be strictly existing members only.

mooncuplanding · 09/04/2019 11:23

I've got two young adult sons who both think JP is a wanker. And that's putting it politely.

My 2 don't actually like him but I can see that his messages around responsibility and 'clean your room' have hit home. It is not necessary to like someone to understand their POV or message

Furrytoebean · 09/04/2019 11:23

I'm really concerned that people think Peterson is gender critical.

It shows that there has been a terrible miscommunication in the gender critical position.

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:26

There are plenty of men he doesn't listen to as well!

Question is, does he use their ideas without attributing them correctly, but ascribing them to lesser scholars who just repeated them. That is quite relevant misbehaviour for an academic. Does he?

In the case of Hannah Arendt, of course, it could also be that he doesn't want to honour the thougts of rather left leaning individuals and it is not based on sexism but political bias.In any case, it is bad form for an academic.

mooncuplanding · 09/04/2019 11:29

deepsolo

I have heard him misquote, extrapolate and incorrectly attribute psychological research all over the place! I don't think it is just a one-off.

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:32

I have heard him misquote, extrapolate and incorrectly attribute psychological research all over the place! I don't think it is just a one-off.

The psychological mechanisms of totalitarianism is one of his core topics. Not even mentioning Arendt once has nothing to do with misquoting.

It is like droning on about the Theory of Relativity lecture after lecture... without name dropping Einstein even once.

mooncuplanding · 09/04/2019 11:34

He tells a story! Makes it simple, has a big ego.

I just think if he does come on, lazy arguments about sexism are just playing into his hands and we need to be much slicker

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 09/04/2019 11:36

But ONLY accusing him of sexism is so easily defended by him, the webchat would be easily 'won' by him and to be clear, he will be out to win!

And here's yet another problem; hierarchical thinking is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

If you look on YouTube you'll see JP's acolytes can't post a video of him with out hyperbole and the claim he has destroyed someone.
So you have to wonder what they see in him and what they take away.

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:36

He tells a story! Makes it simple, has a big ego.

His story is never to simple nor his ego too big to mention Solženicyn.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/04/2019 11:39

It’s very noticeable that when we talk about JP we get posters who really should just go ahead and capitalise the great man’s pronouns. It’s clearly what they want to do.

i don’t think you’ve spent enough time reading His work...

JP is a member of the ruling caste who argues vociferously that the caste system doesn’t exist.

Rather self serving, no?

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:41

I just think if he does come on, lazy arguments about sexism are just playing into his hands and we need to be much slicker

How can you win the argument - in a webchat format, no less - that the primacy of men in politics and the economy, in positions of power, is not due to 'the nature of men and women' but to patriarchy and the oppression of women?

He'll just say 'Yeah, but not every man is an industry captain, you can't compare yourself to the top. The average man has it much harder.' And that will be that.

mooncuplanding · 09/04/2019 11:42

His story is never to simple nor his ego too big to mention Solženicyn

Grin

Very true. And don't forget Nietzsche

FloralBunting · 09/04/2019 11:42

But ONLY accusing him of sexism is so easily defended by him, the webchat would be easily 'won' by him and to be clear, he will be out to win!

And here's yet another problem; hierarchical thinking is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

If you look on YouTube you'll see JP's acolytes can't post a video of him with out hyperbole and the claim he has destroyed someone.

So much this. Webchats aren't 'won'. It's not webchat guest vs MN viper like a fecking grudge match. The adversarial chest beating is why I am somewhat reluctant, though not dead set against him as a guest. Like so much with Peterson, it's missing the point.

FloralBunting · 09/04/2019 11:44

And yes, I'm not sure I have the stamina to keep dealing with 'there is no patriarchy, because bin men and coal miners!'

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:49
Grin

Very true. And don't forget Nietzsche

Yeah, but it is what shows that he is either not very smart because of blind spots greater than Jupiter, or a dishonest stealer of ideas, because his ego won't allow him to give credit where credit is due.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/04/2019 11:50

It’s almost like people have never heard of class analysis and intersectionality (actual intersectionality, not the crazy kind that makes people believe that middle class white men are the most oppressed people on the planet)

PineapplePower · 09/04/2019 11:53

Probably not something Peterson has the capacity to answer though

But we’d get the chance to ask, and that’s something of value. Like was said elsewhere up thread, if you don’t fancy the web chat, you can just ignore it while those of us who’d value the opportunity would get a chance to ask interesting/challenging questions.

mooncuplanding · 09/04/2019 11:54

How can you win the argument - in a webchat format, no less - that the primacy of men in politics and the economy, in positions of power, is not due to 'the nature of men and women' but to patriarchy and the oppression of women?

But it might not be about winning as such. Isn't it more about opening up this conversation further. He fully admits that all male to male interaction has violence at the heart of it ( i.e. they could fight each other at any point) but that men can't do that with women....there is something therefore about how women CAN have equality (of opportunity not outcome) when men are more physically strong?

He's posted stuff on SM about men having the most dangerous jobs in the world for example. When you look at the list, you see that these dangerous jobs are very physical jobs that require strength ( FWIR logging was the top dangerous job and like 99% done by men) and if you were recruiting for those jobs, you would pick the strongest person, so it will inevitably be a man. So logic will tell you that there will be more men in these roles, so I do think we have to acknowledge that there is some biological component to inequality. We have to.

It is then about identifying the parts which are not biological in basis. That is so hard, and why we struggle to win the argument with him because almost impossible to prove. I said upthread that I don't think he understands the 'lived experience' of the standard woman, and that is where we could have interesting discussion, perhaps.

deepwatersolo · 09/04/2019 11:54

It’s almost like people have never heard of class analysis and intersectionality

Exactly. Doesn't make him a particularly deep thinker imo. (This ignorance seems to also make him think that fascism is somehow a subform of socialism. Who owns the means of production? Who cares? The most able ones, presumably, propagated by genes, not heritage.)

Furrytoebean · 09/04/2019 11:54

JP is a member of the ruling caste who argues vociferously that the caste system doesn’t exist. Rather self serving, no?

Exactly.

I always think Russell Brand is the ultimate example of a Peterson fanboy.
He believes himself to be above it all and so self aware and yet genuinely believes his wife is better at packing nappy bags because she is naturally disposed to it and not because somebody had to learn (and learn fast) and he was too busy wafting about doing 'important' things.

Of course young men like Peterson, how lovely to be told white male privilege is a lie and its just nature.

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