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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

How to talk to DD about transgender cousin?

57 replies

Natsku · 07/04/2019 11:24

After not seeing her dad's family for years, and not her cousins since she was a baby, we re-connected with them at her dad's funeral and I found out that the youngest of ex-SIL's grown children is now a transman. I didn't talk to DD (8yrs) about it at the time because obviously there were bigger things on our minds then but we're planning on getting together with ex-SIL and DD's cousins and I don't know how to explain to DD. I don't want to say anything that she might then repeat that will upset anyone but I also want to be honest with her.

OP posts:
BadPennyNoBiscuit · 07/04/2019 11:38

Do your kids know that humans cannot actually change sex? That would be the first thing I'd tell them, and then ask them to be polite to their cousin, who is so unhappy about being a girl they want to be a boy. Reiterate that bullying is not ok and trust them to do the decent thing.

Have the conversation and at least that should give you some idea of how they will react and how much guidance they need.

SnuggyBuggy · 07/04/2019 11:39

I'd just say cousin X is a woman but prefers to dress and live like a man

AssassinatedBeauty · 07/04/2019 11:41

I think I'd tell her the simple facts about not being able to change sex, but some people feel like they need to be referred to as the opposite sex, for reasons that are personal to them. Has the cousin had a name change? I'm assuming so. You could discuss that people can change their names as adults, and to try to remember to use the new name but not to worry if she forgets and uses the old one by mistake. Also that other people might use he/him to refer to the cousin, and they are doing so because the cousin has asked them to.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 07/04/2019 11:44

Humans can't change sex but they have the right to live in whatever gender stereotype that that choose (as long as this doesn't conflict with the rights of others). Gender incongruence is a hard thing to live with, i wouldn't wish it on anyone. Studies have shown that for many young people it won't be forever.

Their cousin will probably appreciate a friend, just to do normal teenage stuff with.

thirdfiddle · 07/04/2019 11:47

Have you talked to her about gender identity things generally? I have a bit (they're 7 and 9) as I want them to be aware before it comes up in school. We treat it like religions really. Some people believe... but I think ... because ...

Could you just say cousin x is female really but believes they're a boy and has taken medicine to make themselves look more like a boy. Ask her not to mention it or call x her as it might upset them. Tbh the amount of interaction of 8 year old with adult cousin is likely to be pretty low anyway isn't it? I don't usually pronoun family members much in their presence anyway, either I'm talking to them or not, I'm not talking about them. But pre warning her might help her to not do any double takes or ask awkward questions that might offend.

Original poster
Natsku · 07/04/2019 12:32

DD is a bit gender nonconforming herself so we've had a few chats about how there isn't a boy way or a girl way to dress or look, she has short hair and got a bit of teasing for it with kids at school asking if she was a boy so I've been trying to reinforce for her that it short hair or long hair or trousers or dresses aren't specific to either sex but I guess I have to explain that for some people they feel like they are?

At least pronouns aren't an issue with the Finnish language, no he or she.

OP posts:
Barracker · 07/04/2019 12:51

It's always bloody challenging putting a child into a situation where there's an expectation that they'll protect the feelings of a narcissistic adult. And any adult that expects a child to pretend they are the opposite sex, or go along with the idea that male and female are about your feelings and clothes, is placing adult narcissism over a child's wellbeing.
Not to mention the awful message it sends a child about how horrific and hateful their own sex apparently is, that someone should want to escape it so badly. Exact opposite of body positivity.
Children want to please adults. There's no way for a child to appease an adult who believes themselves to be trans that doesn't have some negative impact upon the child.

Not helpful to you, OP, sorry.
I'd just have lots of conversations beforehand about being kind as much as is possible, but not beyond the point where you're being asked to pretend you believe or say something that isn't true. If an adult is making you uncomfortable, something is wrong.

stucknoue · 07/04/2019 13:08

I suspect your dd is more savvy than you! Kids today seem to accept far better than adults. The general line of not happy about their body, prefers to dress like a man and it's ok because it's what they want is fine at that age, no need to get political or define gender vs sex. I would not be surprised if she already has grasped it

SnuggyBuggy · 07/04/2019 13:23

If someone can't cut a child some slack for not being up to date with the latest trans ideology then fuck em

nauticant · 07/04/2019 13:30

A quick question Natsku. When I last discussed trans issues with Finnish friends, they were gender critical (down-to-earth countryside people) but I got the distinct impression they were out on a limb away from a progressive consensus.

Are you seeing the same or is it becoming more acceptable for gender critical views to be voiced in Finland?

thirdfiddle · 07/04/2019 13:46

No I think you need to stay clear that it's not about the trousers or the short hair but about a belief. Even the most ardent TRAs will deny that it's about the trousers and the short hair, so that's not controversial. They are using a boy name and maybe taking medication (if they have a beard or anything) because they believe they're a boy. You consider based on biology that they're still female but you don't want to upset them. I don't think it's any harder than getting atheist children to humour religious relatives.

Be ready to defend your DD from insinuations that they might be happier being a boy if necessary. Hopefully cousin wouldn't be so crass but you can't be sure when people are deep into an ideology.

titchy · 07/04/2019 13:47

Their cousin will probably appreciate a friend, just to do normal teenage stuff with.

OP's dd is 8, hardly doing teenage stuff.

'Cousin Sarah wasn't very happy being a girl, so would prefer at the moment to be a boy called Bob. Bob is still female and always will be, but be kind and use their new name.'

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 07/04/2019 13:50

Its not that kids today are more accepting than adults, kids have always been that way.
Its a condition of childhood that kids are not in control, and they accept whatever goes on around them as normal.

VickyEadie · 07/04/2019 13:55

Friend told me this week about her nephew's 'stepdaughter' (nephew and partner are not married) who is about 15.

Girl is one of 4 children, first 3 are girls (she is the eldest) and mother last year gave birth to a boy.

Girl is now saying she's trans. You don't have to be a bleedin' psychotherapist to unpick that one.

RuffleCrow · 07/04/2019 13:55

Tell her the truth:

People of both sexes can wear whatever they like and do pretty much the same things.

Human beings cannot change sex, but some fish and amphibians can.

Some people have a mental health condition that makes them think they are actually the opposite sex and different people have different ideas about how best to manage this.

Some girls grow up thinking that life as a girl will hold them back because of social stereotypes so do what they can to look and sound more 'male'. However they will always be female because human beings can not change sex.

If she or you feel uncomfortable using pronouns that aren't truthful, perhaps encourage her just to use the cousin's name and 'you/ they'. No way should you allow the gender thought police to dictate to someone so young and impressionable.

It is perfectly possible to be polite and also stay true to reality.

Original poster
Natsku · 07/04/2019 18:05

I don't think it's any harder than getting atheist children to humour religious relatives. That is really useful as I've already had a lot of conversations with her about people believing different thing in terms of religion and that's it's not kind to say to them that they are wrong (because she has a tendency to be brutally honest but her grandparents are religious so I had to stop her from being brutally honest to them) so I'm going to tell her it's similar to religion.

@nauticant
I'm in a small town where people tend to be more sensible about such things but from what I gather it is not the same in the bigger towns and cities. We have general elections coming up and the trans law is a part of all the party manifestos (which is leaving me without anyone to vote for because they either want to change the law to allow children to transition and/or self ID, or they don't but they're also racists. I think I need to email some of the local candidates and ask if they believe the same as their party) and it seems like being gender critical is considered dreadfully conservative and not modern and progressive

OP posts:
nauticant · 07/04/2019 18:39

Thanks Natsku, looks like I was wise only to raise this with those particular country friends. I had assumed that my city friends would have taken a very different view.

It sounds similar to other Western democracies where the polarisation has now become "identifying as progressive" vs "perceived as bigoted".

Original poster
Natsku · 07/04/2019 18:55

The few locals I've talked about it to never even thought about it before, it just doesn't come up where we are

OP posts:
Funkyfunkybeat12 · 07/04/2019 19:43

I think that gender dysphoria is a complex condition and that people who have it, particularly women, who are highly unlikely to be motivated by sexual feelings, do deserve sympathy. Someone with GD is no more narcissistic than someone with other psychiatric conditions surely. So I don’t like the snipy digs at the cousin.

As for your DD, I agree that saying that X feels she is a man and wants to live as one is sufficient. I think I probably came across stories of transsexuals when I was quite young and it didn’t screw my thinking or make me believe that humans could change sex or anything.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 07/04/2019 19:49

Sorry titchy
I didn't read it properly. I feel suitably chastised.

SharkTank · 07/04/2019 19:52

You’re being quoted

happydappy2 · 07/04/2019 20:04

8 is very young to have to think about taking artificial hormones off label, to change yr body, to imitate someone of the other sex. Could you just say nothing unless DD asks? Presumably she doesn’t know this transman started life as a girl?
My half brother is gay but I didn’t want to make any kind of big deal about it to my kids, so only when DD asked, is anyone in our family gay, did I tell her. It’s just not what defines him, he is such a top bloke we all love him and frankly his sexuality is none of our business. I don’t think people would expect an 8 yr old to have any knowledge of transsexualism (despite what stonewall would insist) as long as she is polite and friendly that’s enough imho.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 07/04/2019 20:17

My half brother is gay but I didn’t want to make any kind of big deal about it to my kids, so only when DD asked, is anyone in our family gay, did I tell her.

Ummmm what do you mean didn't want to make any kind of big deal of it? Surely you would just be matter of fact about it, seeing as it is totally normal and absolutely no less than being heterosexual? Would you say 'my sister is straight but I didn't want to make any kind of big deal about it to my kids'?

thirdfiddle · 07/04/2019 20:36

Did you announce your sister's straightness to your kids funky? I never did. Come to that for all I know she could be bisexual as she never announced her heterosexuality to me either. If someone is currently single their sexuality is unlikely to come up in family conversation. I still don't know if one cousin is gay or straight as he's always been single or at least never introduced a partner to us.

The reason I'd want to pre-warn it to the DC here is to try to avoid them making gaffes or being obviously confused if the person doesn't pass very well.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 07/04/2019 20:49

Thirdfiddle, yes, of course I think that the OP should mention it, as presumably the DD knows that she has a female cousin. I was responding to the bit about 'I don't want to mention that my half brother is gay'. It's this same narrative that came up about the LGBT lessons in school. People questioning when is the right age for kids to be 'exposed' to the existence of same-sex relationships etc. The insinuation that same-sex relationships are harmful or lesser in some way and not for children's ears when they are 'exposed' to heterosexuality everywhere since birth.