What is wrong with females having single sex spaces to attend to needs which come of their female status?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I am genuinely confused by this:

What argument supports MTF being in spaces where miscarriages, uteruses, breasts, our whatever are attended to? Why would anyone who does not have the biology WANT to be in there?

Is it really just for validation?

Not validation so much as violation.

Violating women's spaces.

Some men must get off on that.

(Note to NAMALTers: I said "some")

Women are not permitted to self organise. Independent women have always been considered a threat.

Some men get off on violating boundaries.

Some people need validation and insist we chant for them.

I've even seen men say ''why should men pay for something they can't use?'' They see funding a DV shelter as an unfair tax on honest men.

I am genuinely confused by this:

That's because you're rational. And decent.

And when women say it's because women can have nothing for themselves, or many men think it's perfectly normal and correct to keep women in line, or great swathes of men enjoy violating women, or demand validation for something which harms women, you could be forgiven for thinking that these women are just a bunch of desperate, man hating cynics.

But then, of course, you have to come up with an actual answer that satisfies.

What argument supports MTF being in spaces where miscarriages, uteruses, breasts, our whatever are attended to? Why would anyone who does not have the biology WANT to be in there?

And I'm tempted to say and good luck with that.

There's not a woman on the planet who has drilled down into transgenderism who hasn't dug up the most disgusting misogyny as a consequence.

Sorry.

Three words OP:

Misogyny

Validation

Fetishization

Transgenderism is a men's sexual "rights" activism .. they assume the "right" to behave sexually in any way they choose, in any place they choose and at any time they choose. It is about their sense of supremacy with regard to men's sexual arousal, which is enhanced when they can achieve this by way of violating women's and girls' boundaries.

Because some men don't perceive women as automonous human beings, just as accessories to men, therefore we aren't entitled to have anything that they don't allow us to have.

Eunuchs in female spaces to ensure the women aren't revolting is an age-old patriarchal tactic. We're just seeing a new version of it.

Because "what about the men?"

Remember OP, the world revolves around them, and we're just lucky that they want to have sex with us.

There's not a woman on the planet who has drilled down into transgenderism who hasn't dug up the most disgusting misogyny as a consequence.

Oh yes.

I agree OP. As a fairly normal, reasonable women, I don't go busting into the men's changing rooms because they would prefer to change without women looking at their dangly bits (and presumably get on with it without in turn seeing my dangly bits).

There's nothing wrong with sex segregation, especially when it's physically related (toiletting, changing rooms, accommodation, healthcare etc.)

I've been thinking about this and really can't see any reasonable explanation for someone who lacks the biology being in spaces where consequences of biology are dealt with.

I am also sure that some transowmen think they are justified in demanding access because they believe they are female. Stephanie Hayden said on a thread on here that she's female because her birth certificate says "F". I think that's a terrible lie that the law is telling transwomen - they may be female legally and socially, but, they are not female biologically. I suspect if some transowmen actually believe they are female they see the female spaces as somewhere they are excluded from rather than somewhere they have no need of.

It's an unholy mess

I am not transphobic, #someofmybestfriendsaretrans (well, that's not true, but, I have worked with some trans people and know some socially) - but, I will admit to being deeply suspicious of trans people who want to get into sex segregated spaces. Anyone reasonable would see that women just want to be left alone in there, it's to a trans issue at all, it's about women's choices being disrespected.

It's because not being able to get into a female space, when you believe you are female and want everyone else to believe you are female; is the biggest exhibition there can possibly be, that you are not.

That you are not a 'full' female, a normal female, not a truly legitimate female.

Since that is what some transwomen want, in fact there's nothing they want more, they cannot accept it. It's a denial of their most fundamental beliefs and wants.

Also some sexual predators will of course take advantage in the way they do of any opportunity

Sexual predators - agree, sinister people will do sinister things.

Transwomen wanting to be seen as being "fully female" - is this something the gender clinics are telling them will happen? That they will be female?

Or, is it the culture of the trans community using web forums to spread their delusion that they are, in truth, female that leads to the belief that they are the same as me? And the law muddling up sex and gender won't help.

I don't understand what the problem is about being a trans woman. Why is that not an acceptable thing in itself? Why not be proud to be trans, instead of furious that some female people want their own spaces to deal with female things?

It's AGP and misogyny driving this. Same old same old.

OP I am nodding along to every point you make....it seems so obvious.

"women just want to be left alone in there, it's not a trans issue at all, it's about women's choices being disrespected *.

This seems so obvious doesn't it....until I considered that what is actually playing out here is about POWER and control.

So many people, in the absence of a sense of power and control over their own lives ("I am not as rich as I think I should be", "I'm not as popular as I think I should be") look for power and control over others.

Women have always been that convenient out-group for men....regardless of how weak an individual male might be, at least he could satisfy himself that he wasn't a (ugh!) woman. He always sat higher in the hierarchy above all women.

Now that women have achieved some level of autonomy and power in society (not equal but some level)...well, if you're a less adequate adult (who happens to be male) what do you do then?

And I truly believe that some of this toxic trans agenda is the backlash against increasing female autonomy. (not all trans are like that etc etc)

Couple that with the lack of empathy training that many male children get (socialisation...boys will be boys etc.) and here we are.
Women's choices are not seen as valid, our voices are disrespected.

As far as I'm concerned, they and the women who are so eager to share locker rooms, prison cells, dormitories and toilets with them , are welcome to have their own "feminine gender" [or whatever they want to call it] spaces. Go for it, knock yourselves out. But it shouldn't mean the rest of us can't retain our lawful female-only spaces with privacy (and safety) away from males.

I don’t really get it either, in this age of being your true authentic self, why not own being a Trans Woman? Biological male who for any number of reasons wishes to present as female.
But still use Male spaces.
Too many wish to use women as human shields from male violence, yet don’t understand why we fear men in our sex segregated spaces....

Yes "authentic trans woman" as opposed to "authentic male" or "not even close female'

Or, is it the culture of the trans community using web forums to spread their delusion that they are, in truth, female that leads to the belief that they are the same as me?

I have no idea what gender clinics tell (or don't tell) transwomen. One would hope (?!) that they'd give any transitioning person realistic information; but who knows.

Yes, it's the trans community in part, I think, but also simply that (having decided they are the opposite sex) their ultimate desire is to truly be that sex and be recognised as that sex. It's not really possible but that's not what they are internally driven to believe. I suppose (in a much much lesser way, possibly not a good comparison) it's similar to how people hope and believe they'll look after cosmetic surgery and fillers IE themselves at 25, dewy, youthful, glowing and natural .. compared to how they actually look (like a wax work), they are sold the fantasy but they also sell themselves the fantasy and believe it to some extent.

The more you look into it all the worse it gets.

On the eg toilets front, I suppose if a transwoman is out fully dressed and styled as a female, they feel they cannot use the men's toilets since they'd stick out like a sore thumb, possibly be challenged (if they 'pass' as female), possibly be harassed or attacked if they encounter a less tolerant man or men etc so they feel they should use the women's. But that can create a problem for women and girls; i suppose the answer is separate unisex toilets but not everywhere is going to be able to provide that. (Plus some transwomen will say they shouldn't have to and be opposed to it(.

Incidentally I feel very differently about post op/fully sex changed transwomen using female only facilities compared to intact make bodied trans 'women'; do you feel that way too?

*male

I do, Morality, in that I've known and seen trans women in female loos since, well, forever.

It was way better when it was an unofficial favour based system. That is how females managed the creepy-blokes. We spotted them, called them out and kicked them out because our spaces were protected. The trans women, who were seen by us as being safe, were allowed in.

The way it is now, the genuine trans women can't come in the loos because we can't evict the predators. It leads to transphobia - previously I'd have assumed that any trans woman in the loo was vulnerable. Now I wonder if they are a rapist pretending to be trans.

So, really the thing has backfired. I would not have minded transowmen in my loo before - but, now that I see the number of men pretending to be trans to take pics under the cubicles, now I want them all out.

All of them. It's female only spaces.

It leads to transphobia - previously I'd have assumed that any trans woman in the loo was vulnerable. Now I wonder if they are a rapist pretending to be trans.

Yep. I started with a live and let live philosophy. And now the more I see, the more suspicious I am.

Men (or women) who fail to respect a woman or child's rights to boundaries - to say no - are the problem.

It's the response of a predator.

Yes, it is! And so, why is that NOT a red flag for these services?

What the fuck is wrong with people? There are plenty of trans people who just want to quietly get on with their lives. the ones who are banging o the door of female spaces are focussed on themselves and not on the women in those female spaces. They are at best, selfish. At worst, well, exactly the people who should not be in female spaces.

It's so obvious, except if you Penny Mordaunt.