What is wrong with females having single sex spaces to attend to needs which come of their female status?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I am genuinely confused by this:

What argument supports MTF being in spaces where miscarriages, uteruses, breasts, our whatever are attended to? Why would anyone who does not have the biology WANT to be in there?

Is it really just for validation?

What the fuck is wrong with people?

I know. I woke up thinking about this, this morning! Because it's not just transwomen belly-aching on about being allowed in women's spaces - it's about 10,372,563 beardy men on Twitter too.

Where do these woke beardy-fucking-men get off, telling women what their boundaries should be?

Well of course, it's the age-old reason - an objection to women having their own autonomy. It's no coincidence that before the TRA came along, it's was the MRA - attacking Mumsnet, literally objecting to women discussing stuff amongst themselves.

I read Dominic Lawson's piece in the Mail yesterday about gender neutral loos, and it made me realise how far the TRA have come in breaking women's boundaries down.

Plus it absolutely shows that the beardy-woke-fucking-men on Twitter, telling women how to think, and how to behave, have way more empathy with transwomen than they do with women.

And that's really fucking demonstrative too. Women's spaces are for women, not penises.

YES!

That's what enrages me. I stupidly (seriously, I would'n't recommend it) had a discussion on FB with a now ex friend who is gay, married and her wife has come out as NB. Her wife's butch and autistic, so, I think it's obligatory that she's NB, they are as woke a couple as you could hope to find, all about menstruators and pronouns. I said "until we can protect women from male violence then we have to maintain single sex spaces" and she said "well, there's only a few of these cases a year, so, it's statistically insignificant and shouldn't be legislated for".

I shit you not.

There is a number of assaults which is acceptable to her. She (and her friends, it was a right pile on) had more sympathy for a trans woman with a penis who is sad because we don't see them as female being told "no, go to the other loo" than a female being assaulted.

It's monstrous.

It's not even about violence necessarily. I cannot stand the male gaze. I have always hated, even as a young woman, to be looked at and assessed and desired by men whom I did not know. I find it creepy that a man might be imagining having sex with me. So for me, single sex changing rooms are also a matter of privacy. I just don't want to get naked with strange men, even if they don't assault me, and surely I should have that right.

I can't help thinking we need to do away with the concept of gender altogether. It was all very clear when it was clearly an alternative word for your sex. Now it's just got totally confusing with some people saying gender is different from sex, while others are saying it's the same. In my mind, your gender is how you wish society to perceive you. This makes it entirely about 'appearance'. Your sex is something you are born with - immutable and unchangeable. Segregation should be based only on your sex. If we treated both (all!) genders the same, then it wouldn't really matter what gender you choose to call yourself. Your gender would soon cease to be meaningful.

For that reason, I'm planning to become gender-free.

She (and her friends, it was a right pile on) had more sympathy for a trans woman with a penis who is sad because we don't see them as female being told "no, go to the other loo" than a female being assaulted.

Is this really a world we want to live in?

I'm with Terry

Misogyny

Validation

Fetishization

And the old trope that when women say no they mean yes.

Transwomen don't consider that they need consent to enter female only spaces.

Lamha agree.

they think that a few women are cannon fodder, so you've got no hope for expecting something as wishy washy as privacy and respect.

Hope that's ok.

I really don't get the thing about 'pretending to be trans' though.

Its a fucking liberty for ANY male to waltz into women's spaces. It is a display of male entitlement and it doesn't matter what surgery or hormones they've had.

Yesterday I was chatting with a male relative who is actually aggressively un-PC and un-woke - he suddenly turned uncharacteristically gushing and full of empathy talking about a male cyclist from Glasgow who - yadda yadda yadda felt wrong yadda yadda quietly get on with his own life yadda yadda cliche yadda most oppressed yadda yadda and my male relative was completely unwilling to entertain the fact that a dude can make women uncomfortable in women's spaces, it is irrelevant that some 'pass' better, and there is no reason to prioritise male discomfort over women's.

It wasn't until I got pretty defiant and annoyed, raised my voice and said "I don't give a fuck what you are going through you liberty taking bastard you can piss off out of my space, its not yours, get the fuck out! Get the fuck away from me!" that he backed down. I think the penny might of dropped that women have the right to boundaries, we can be triggered into fight or flight mode when they are over stepped, and it is not for one bloke to permit another bloke to violate women's boundaries because he feels sorry for them. He didn't say that - I think I saw it in his eyes.

Also gay, straight or trans - all males make me feel uncomfortable in women's single sex space - it belies their lack of respect for women and our different biology, concerns and path in life. They do not belong and if they think for some reason they do, then they have diminished what it actually is to be a woman.

The kind of male I would feel least uncomfortable would be one who had a genuine reason to have crashed in - eg - by mistake or because a massive bastard was following them and was about to beat them up - that kind of thing. Not because they felt fucking entitled to be there.

** Well done, NWM! ... was he taken aback by a woman not backing down?

it is not for one bloke to permit another bloke to violate women's boundaries because he feels sorry for them.

And also, it's not for one woman to allow blokes to violate other women's boundaries because she feels sorry for them. Personally I'm fine with, e.g. a male HCP performing my smear ... this is completely and utterly irrelevant to other women's boundaries.

You see it even on this website every single conversation some man imposes himself in the debate usually with some insult. The problem is Women STILL will not organise enough around their own interests, they still seek male validation, and they teach this stuff to the next generation of girls so it continues.

Well done, NWM!

Thanks Errol

You're right, NWM.

"pretending to be trans" is a polite way of me saying something else, and I'm not quite sure what i actually mean.

I don't believe that trans treatment - wearing different clothes, surgery or hormones - is effective. The research seems to show that suicide rates aren't less for people post-op or transition than pre.

So, yes, I guess it boils down to that I don't believe that TWAW, even the ones with a diagnosis of dysphoria, and I just don't want them in my sex segregated space - it instantly makes it all about them. And, it seems like it's always all about them. I just want to know I can have a period-shit in peace.

I guess it boils down to that I don't believe that TWAW, even the ones with a diagnosis of dysphoria, and I just don't want them in my sex segregated space

And it's always worth noting, some of the TW who do have a diagnosis of dysphoria agree with you that they're still males, and some also agree re sex segregated spaces.

I just don't want them in my sex segregated space

Which is perfectly acceptable and should need no further justification.

And it's always worth noting, some of the TW who do have a diagnosis of dysphoria agree with you that they're still males, and some also agree re sex segregated spaces.

I find that these are the only trans identified males who don't raise my blood pressure a bit and make me fight or flight mode defensive. I feel like 'aaahhh' I can relax and don't need to defend myself, they respect my boundaries and won't overstep the mark.

I was told (by a man of course) that I had shared spaces with trans women and not been harmed as I didn’t know 🙄

I told the man I was well aware that I had shared women’s spaces with trans women and I felt uncomfortable- his response was why didn’t you do anything

Er I don’t tend to confront men 1/ fear of retaliation 2/ have been conditioned not to create a fuss 3/I didn’t know how to handle the situation

Apparently my response is the same as a racist as I am prejudiced and that there are no safe spaces as men who want to attack women will enter there spaces - ignored me when I said they can now hide in plain sight

Ffs men don’t get it and trans women don’t get it because they are men

Seems like we have had it too good for too long we got the vote, equal rights to pay, and some safe spaces obviously we were getting too much of our own way and men are having to stop this by redefining what is right for us women

I am so fucked off with it all

This thread is so enlightening.

Agree entirely with what you say about transwomen who accept they are male - never had a problem with them at all. That's who I worked with, a MTF and an FTM - both were great colleagues and absolutely not a problem, though, that was in the 90s and things have moved on.

It is the aggression of the MTF that upsets me - the ones who tell me they are more woman than I am while waving a birth certificate under my nose - metaphorically, all these interactions have been on twitter, not in person. Bullies don't bully in person nowadays, do they? They go online and in legislation.

It makes me worry for the majority of transpeople who will experience more transphobia as a result. For instance - there was a child sexually assaulted by a MTF in a supermarket toilet. I have a kid the same age, previously I'd have been tolerant of seeing a trans woman in the supermarket loo - now I'll be vigilant incase it's he same person who was convicted for hurting that kid.

I'm tolerant, I liked the old system where women were allowed to decide which trans woman was allowed in our spaces and which was a dodgy creep who didn't belong there. Now, because of the myriad of cases like that one in the supermarket, now I'm wary of transpeople in my loo.

It's a totally counterproductive stance. It feels like GC women are being Wendied by the TRA. Totally baffling situation.

Thank fuck for Janice Turner et al. Without them, and this thread on MN, we'd be unable to have the "hang on, we don't think this is right or fair" heard at all.

Totally fucked off too.

Seems like we have had it too good for too long we got the vote, equal rights to pay, and some safe spaces obviously we were getting too much of our own way

Nailed it. If you looked at comments under newspaper articles from men you run into this constantly: often in the form of 'well you asked for it when you feminists got all uppity and out of line, so serves you right'. The bottom line is that many men believe women deserve to be punished for having dared to seek equality in the first place.

In the identity politics world this is phrased as all about privilege, which essentially for women boils down to deserving to be eternally apologising for living while serving and obeying those oppressed by being 'born in the wrong body'. There is a very clear hierarchy and woe betide women getting out of their place, or speaking, or breathing too loud.

Misogyny on crack. In plain sight. However for the first time in a century ordinary women are waking up to this, getting very pissed off about it and organising in ways women haven't since Mrs Pankhurst.

I guess it boils down to that I don't believe that TWAW, even the ones with a diagnosis of dysphoria

This is sadly where I am at now. I used to be fine with the idea of post op and such. But then I read that many women were NOT fine with this and my stance hardened. Yea, transwomen have used womens spaces for a while, but its TRAs that have forced the drawing of concrete lines, not women. Also, 'noone had any issues' is a silly thing to say, because just because they did not speak up at the time, this does not mean women have ever been comfortable with the presence of an obviously male (regardless of if his penis is inverted or not) in female spaces. I always felt a bit uncomfortable, but let it slide as 'they have a hard enough life', but this new lot of 'transwomen'..nope nope and nope. Also this ridiculous theory that you cannot tell most oif the time is just that, ridiculous. Regardless of how much surgery men have had, what they are wearing or whastever its still nearly always easy to tell. Even with the facial feminisation surgeries and that..

I KNOW!

Ok, some photos are convincing - but, in real life, no, I can honestly always tell.

FTM look more convincing in pics, but, from behind, there's a big female pelvis there, and when they move and talk - they don't pass.

MTF - never missed one that's Western. Maybe some Thai or other backgrounds where their frame is less bulky than caucasians - but, for a white male? They don't pass. Ever. No. Only in their head.

I'm tolerant, I liked the old system where women were allowed to decide which trans woman was allowed in our spaces and which was a dodgy creep who didn't belong there. Now, because of the myriad of cases like that one in the supermarket, now I'm wary of transpeople in my loo.

That's kind of where I am too. Women were/are not asked to consent to male bodies in female toilets. Men decided for us.

Consent. Think about it.

It is the aggression of the MTF that upsets me...

I know!

They behave just like men, don't they?

Funny that.

It wasn't until I got pretty defiant and annoyed, raised my voice and said "I don't give a fuck what you are going through you liberty taking bastard you can piss off out of my space, its not yours, get the fuck out! Get the fuck away from me!" that he backed down.

Well done. This is exactly how I feel. Men aren't the fucking arbiters of who comes into women's facilities. They are for women. If you were born male, you don't get to have a say.

In the past I was quite 'whatevs' about noticing a well presented transwoman in the ladies'.

Now? No. My alert is on high, especially if the loos are cubicles with gaps.

I'm on edge and unable to relax.

We have to strip and sit for just about everything loo related, which makes us instantly more vulnerable. Being able to relax and feel safe helps us deal with all the body stuff essentials.

I read girls are drinking less water, going to the loo less, staying home from school on period days so they don't have to deal with it.

I feel I've become less tolerant and more suspicious - which surely is what benign transwomen were trying to reduce in the first place .

Talk about an own goal ...