Does feminism take age and experience?

[user9000]

So recently spent a few months in the company of women around the age of 20 as I was updating my education. I was really disappointed to see how many of them have bought into the importance of the size of their derrieres, wearing waist trainers at night and loads of makeup and hair accessories. (Please note I realize women can wear whatever they want, it's their right, and they were young and frivolous, etc).

When I joked that when I was their age most girls were afraid of having a big bum they laughed and said 'well these days men like big ones!' All I could think was who cares what men want? And how disappointing that corsets have made a comeback?
Is my despair an over-reaction?
I realize young men are also pressured to have chiseled abs, etc. Maybe it's just society in general now? (rant over...)

I believe we are moving towards a society that looks like the capitol in the hunger games.

Freaking brilliant. Tearing down a whole generation of women. Feminism right there.

Wow.....that is concerning.
What on earth?
That is actually very sad.....I don't do anything to please men (apart from my partner)...STUFF THAT.

Tearing down a whole generation of women. Feminism right there.

Is an inaccurate representation of the OP, wouldn’t you say?

@hipsterfun Nope, I wouldn't say. The combination of the OP's title, with their pretty judgemental comments about these young women, and the final "Maybe it's just society in general now?", makes it pretty clear to me that this is not just a comment about these women (which frankly wouldn't be very nice anyway ) but a more generalised comment on younger women.

I mean, the OP on the one hand acknowledges a woman's right to wear what she likes, whilst on the other calling them frivolous for it. And then assuming their inability to be feminists due to their age and experience? It comes across pretty harsh.

Even radical feminists shouldn't be shaming women for this even if we don't agree. This is not about individual choice it is about systematic oppression of a class. As such you cannot expect individuals to disregard patriarchy norms.

Although yes of course this is problematic. I'm just not sure why you're surprised. It's not like this is in any way a new thing. Just a new manifestation of the same old shit

Dunno. I remember very clearly aged about 7 being laughed at by boys for saying I wanted to be a lorry driver. I was furious, and I knew that telling me I couldn't drive a lorry because I was a girl was utter horseshit.
From that moment on, none of the unfairness towards females went unnoticed. I just didn't know it was called feminism.
I never did become a lorry driver

I don't think the OP is actually criticising the women themselves so much as the culture that means they have to buy into their looks to this degree. We live in a society now where you're fuckable or invisible, my 18 yr DD lives a life my generation (90's teen) would find unthinkable. It's incredibly damaging and it hurts my soul that girls feel their worth as a human being is reduced to their value as a sex object and in fact are brainwashed into self objectification. In many ways girls now are worse off than we were at their ages. 😔

It didn't take age and experience in the 70's, when the girls in my elementary school did a direct action and wore pants to school, which was against the rules. We changed that policy in one day.

Are they really wearing corsets?

I totally agree with @3ChangingForNow.

The patriarchy is so demanding, and whilst I'm not arguing that society is not a bloody mess, for young women and the rest of us, not being the perfect feminist is not the same as not being one. It's really hard to fight against the massive pressures of society.

Maybe these particular girls haven't questioned everything just yet, or maybe they are rebelling in ways you couldn't see, maybe they never will. But whatever stage their at surely we should support them and acknowledge the challenges fighting against the patriarchy involves?

And to be fair, there are loads of brave, committed , young feminists out there, some probably dressing just like these women and some definitely not!

#NAYWALT. There’s a generation now of young women like my daughter who are out-achieving male from school to university and who, brexit excepted, have opportunities that their grandparents could have never imagined. And now it appears that they no longer have to starve themselves down to children’s sized clothes either. If there’s more emphasis on having an arse the size that nature intended adult women to have, why does that have to be a bad thing?

I do know a lot of young women (all very educated) who are obsessed with the perfect proposal, the perfect wedding, massively into gender stereotypes and all that jazz in a way I and my friends 20/25 years ago never were.

I do worry that some thing's gone massively wrong somewhere but I'm not sure if I'm right or it's just a small sample set.

Well i know plenty of young women who aren’t, Dangling mod. I raised one of them. But if they have the whole range of choices and some still want these options, who else’s business is it? I suppose we could have ‘re-education‘ internment camps like the Chinese government.

I dont think this is true there are older women who still conform to all the stereotypes too. My dd is 14 and couldn't give a toss about makeup, the size of her bum or what boys think (or girls for that matter) she spends her whole time in baggy clothes riding her skateboard and is very into feminism. Saying that it isn't easy to be the non conforming person and she does get picked on for it sometimes.

As I said, I'm not saying I'm right, and I know other young women who aren't like that, but it feels like the balance has shifted. As if everything has been won or as if society as a whole has gone backwards (gendered toys and clothes etc being embraced by many parents).

Just a feeling. Not saying I'm right.

Dunno. I remember very clearly aged about 7 being laughed at by boys for saying I wanted to be a lorry driver. I was furious, and I knew that telling me I couldn't drive a lorry because I was a girl was utter horseshit.
From that moment on, none of the unfairness towards females went unnoticed. I just didn't know it was called feminism.
I never did become a lorry driver

In retrospect I'm quite pleased that when she was 6, my DD's teacher told her girls couldn't be builders. (DD meant 'someone who builds cool stuff'). She's 20 now, and midway through an engineering degree.

Most of her friends through school and now at uni are nothing like the young women the OP met. Possibly neither of these groups is particularly representative of the diverse range of young women?

So, I don't think feminism necessarily requires both age and experience. Perhaps it requires experience, and/or sufficient maturity to empathise with other women and girls experience?

There is more training / pressure to be appearance obsessed then there ever was. Social media is primarily image based.

Just read a review of a publication that shows that facebooks ad targeting is very racist and sexist. Even though they don’t use race/ sex as factors, their system are based around image recognition which can detect race and sex without much help

Also I think younger women are probably more interested in attracting a mate which will make them more likely to conform to society expectations

So I suspect it is more likely that younger people will be more stereotypical than older ones in behaviour and appearance .

Going back to the thread question, will this change as these women get older? Yes, but I am less sure if that will be a big effect. Some people do come to feminism through life experience, rape or discrimination, but it is incredibly hard to throw off training. The people I think of as feminists were atypical as children

I think there is often an experience that is the tripwire to feminism, so in that sense I agree, but I don’t think age is needed.

Mine was at age 7, a teacher saying very specifically that girls would know xyz because they are in the kitchen cooking and doing the dishes.

The enlightening moment when it first dawns on you that girls and women are going to be expected to be in different spheres if life and that they will be treated differently in that assumption, that’s when lifelong feminism begins.

I teach teenage girls. Some of them spend three hours getting their make up "Instagram Correct" before they venture into the world each day. Now, every girl needs a hobby, but these girls also claim they have no time to read, study or take classes in more long-term hobbies such as music, gym, crafts or other pursuits. I teach girls who are gamers, comic book artists, dancers and athletes too. When it comes to academic achievement, the more active girls wipe the floor with the beauty addicts.

I'm not disparaging make up for teen girls but I do notice that a disproportionate number of those obsessed by their appearance have a very narrow range of ability and opportunity. Correlation is not causation, but the more active girls tend to be more vocally feminist too.

I remember telling someone I was an 'equalist' when they asked me if I was a feminist as feminist seemed to radical to me. I was late 20s.

I've learnt a lot since then and at 40 I'm what some would call a radical feminist.

I've identified as a feminist since I was about 12, however I wouldn't say I fully understand it until a lot later. However I very much understood the basic principle, who could not?

I was on the boys football team in primary school, it made the local paper (!), it was almost unheard of back then, at least where I lived. The school had no issue with it, to their credit. A lot would have. I did not come from the most forward thinking of areas.

Maybe the women you spent time with aren't feminists?
The waist trainer thing concerns me, it sounds like it could be harmful, and it definitely isn't a concept that is OK.

The thing that disturbs me the most is the reason behind the choices - "well, men like big ones". To me your health, outwards appearance - that should be for you! Don't alter your body to the preferences of someone else.

I agree the pressure on young people is insane in different ways today than it used to be. The media have a lot to answer for on this issue. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and while it wasn't perfect, I honestly believe it was a lot better overall. No social media (while I accept there is a lot of good that has come through social media, I have huge concerns regarding how children and teenagers use it and are affected by it - the constant messages regarding so many things).

Maybe you just ran into a group of women who are interested in appearance and men, not everyone is like that. But yes there's a massive focus on appearance now. People having cosmetic surgery at 18. Lip fillers. Spending 4 hours on make-up. Make-up that changes the way you look to an extreme extent (have a look on youtube! some of it is fascinating to be fair). I wonder how a girl who wore no make up and had long natural hair would be treated in high school and outside of school now? Would it be OK?

I wonder how a girl who wore no make up and had long natural hair would be treated in high school and outside of school now? Would it be OK?

Yes.
DD doesn't wear makeup at all, has long hair which she gets me to trim the ends of occasionally.

They find their own tribes, I suppose.

Women who aren't mothers haven't be radicalised by it yet. So that will mean fewer feminists from that group.

I remember years ago a mate of mine wouldn't leave the house without make up to get ciggies from the garage. She was also into wearing a wonder bra, followed by a wonder body. I was a bit more hippyish and not into being 'unnatural'.

I think there are more pressures, with social media and prolific porn, for girls to wear far more make up, have cosmetic procedures, endure degrading sex acts and pretend to enjoy it, etc now.

Also real feminism has been thoroughly demonised and a warped version would have it that the young women wearing corsets at night with a hope to please men are making feminist choices.