A really interesting article for anyone experiencing narcisstic behaviour in their lives

[pombear]

For anyone experiencing narcisstic behaviour in their lives, particularly women, this is a really interesting article.

donawheeler.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/ignoring-the-narcissist-how-to-spot-the-monkey-dance/

To enable this thread to remain, let's not speak of this again. But you may want to risk reading the link whilst it's still here.

Reading about the grey rock technique is interesting because I realise I used to use it instinctively when I was younger if I got hit on by a man who came across as overbearing or domineering. I'd do a "what, little me? I'm so mousey and dull and geeky and I'm sure a man who's as interesting, fascinating as you needs an equally interesting woman who'll be a challenge to you...". It's got me out of some quite scary situations.

Conversely I've been attracted to men precisely because they passed the "waitress test" and the being nice and supportive of all their friends test (even when they were under considerable stress themselves).

to all women affected by this behaviour.

Mn has taught me so much, about so many things.

yes . Ns are brutalising :(

The mirror of projection is so important. It shows their fears and weaknesses so is very useful, but once they know that we know, it can get dangerous.

And be careful of laughing at the monkey dance of course.. think of Atwood; men are afraid women will laugh a them, women are afraid men will kill them. Sometimes we absolutely should laugh and burst their power bubble because they shouldn't be allowed to gain power by terrorising others, no matter how bad or weak they feel inside, but we do it from a safe place with our armour up. This is when they feel exposed and the 'literal violence'.

This link is also interesting, describes how aspects of N can be nuanced, we shouldn't just look for the outwardly marauding Ns, but the covert, unconfident ones too.. very relevant to regulatory capture and therapists/doctors who become rescuers and enablers I think.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201901/all-you-should-know-about-covert-narcissist

Yes. Important to note that the dynamics of interpersonal abuse can also replicate into societal level abuse. Techniques don't alter.

My thoughts exactly, LangCleg. When you’ve had to deal with abusive behaviour from those around you on a personal level, you absolutely recognise the same dynamics on a wider, societal level.

There are some wonderful resources in these links.

I think we should be teaching this stuff in schools, especially to girls. Very empowering, potentially. Just imagine a world where girls grow up knowing about this stuff, and able to arm themselves against it.

I will read that tomorrow.

And for everyone with Narc parents.

Thanks for this, particularly the grey rock technique, I realise I've been using it for years with my father, and maybe my mum a bit too, it's good to know it's actually a thing and not just me being rude!

"You’re supposed to run away, to see him as some sort of all-knowing, all dangerous threat. But you don’t."

This really resonated with me due to my current situation. This is an amazing thread and full of important resources. Thank you

Thank you it was all encompassing, every layer of my life and I was lucky because I did have my own income and the means to leave - but we are now a good few years on with it still going through the courts and lawyers because DC are involved. The resources posted on this thread are really helpful - because I ended up with trauma related anxiety, there are certain things he does which trigger me. It is obvious he is trying to get that response and while I have not got to the stage of completely ignoring him (dc and lawyers mean every interaction is still scrutinised), I respond minimally or at least try to.

I think the perception that because it is not physical violence and because it is not any one obvious thing (but everything) means that it is hard to recognise. Plus the perpetrator is great at making you think it is you and your behaviour which is causing it.

One of the posts upthread made me remember that one thing he loved to do was engineer an argument in the evening when I was tired and wanted peace and quiet. He would prod away with things he knew would get a response, and then accuse me of being unfriendly when I did not engage, so things would escalate. And then I would be too upset to sleep and he would snore his head off. He would always, every day, ask me how I had slept and if I was getting too much sleep or sleeping okay, he would do this argument thing. I stopped answering how I had slept in any kind of detail.

So you think it would be obvious if someone is controlling how and when you sleep, but it took me a while to figure that one out.

So yes, the more education about these things, the better. I need to say it was the old FWR board that started me on the path to understanding - there was a young Australian I think poster who was very articulate about having been in one abusive relationship after another, and I don’t know, on that thread, it somehow dawned on me that from childhood on, that had been my life. I may have her nationality wrong, but she was very articulate. I hope she (and many other posters who no longer post) are okay.

That is a lot of waffle - the short version is that these boards can be so helpful to women and I hope this thread is too

Shark

I love this thread. Wonderful resources.

Wish I had had it when I was with my ex. I managed to implement my own version of grey rock in the end, but if I’d have had access to some of these resources I could have got there a lot quicker. Fortunately I still have some family members in my life I can practice it on 😂

No wonder society has to put quite so much effort into devaluing middle aged women, we’re terrifying!

Fantastic resources on this thread. That covert narc link has struck a chord for me. Very interesting take I hadn't considered before.

Katara

I’m going to come back and make sure I read all these articles again

Hearing narcissistic behaviour described makes it so much easier to recognise IRL

As others have said, no wonder people want to get in the way of us talking

PonyoPonyo me too - wish I (and my mother!) had had these resources decades ago. She was utterly destroyed by my narc father. He’s one of the vanishingly rare ones who has improved by a fractional margin, but he’s had to lose a lot to reach that point.

No wonder society has to put quite so much effort into devaluing middle aged women, we’re terrifying!

Ain’t that the truth! Knowledge is power - as is far fewer fucks given once you reach middle age. The resources and knowledge on this board by all you fantastic women has seen the scales fall from my eyes! More power to you all 💪🏻

Delurking to say thank you - this is an incredibly helpful thread. So interesting to read the links, recognise patterns of behaviour in the descriptions, and start thinking about how to respond. Its empowering to learn about this stuff.

I sincerely hope we're terrifying Sophocles

God, that covert narcissist link reads just like my ex. Oh how I cringe at how my 18 year old self was sucked in by his sad victim persona. Everybody teach your daughters about these vampires, I wish I’d known, it would’ve saved me 19 years of misery and counting.

The approach that has finally worked with me is the ‘yes, well you’ll have to sort that out then won’t you dear,’ followed by, ‘no, well it’s not really my issue so you’ll have to deal with it.’ The meltdowns to begin with were quite something but now he’s realised he won’t get any change out of me he avoids me like the plague, which is fabulous. I’m still having other issues with him regarding the matrimonial home we part own, which he drove me out of with his abusive And aggressive behaviour, but the respite from him hoovering me for sympathy is lovely at least.

When I’ve got some time later I’ll work my way through the links I haven’t yet read, so thanks to all who have posted. You’re all a great source of strength and knowledge which has been invaluable to me.

I think my XH is a covert narcissist. Thank the goddess I got out.

Just adding my thanks to everybody for posting these links. Such useful resources, and I agree we should be teaching our children this stuff so they're better able to spot it.

Thanks for the links here and on the other thread, I literally just sent them to a friend in NZ whose Ex is saying, ‘ I’ll never let you go’ She is very grateful to us

This is fascinating and terrifying reading. Thanks to every contributing and to all with real life experiences.

May I ask how you are teaching your daughters about these things? Luckily I don't have personal experience to draw on, but I don't want my children to be unaware.

MotherForkinShirtBalls I’m teaching daughter and son! We have excellent case study material (sadly) in the form of a narc grandparent on either side in both covert & exhibitionist form and of both sexes. So they know the damage and distress it causes.

The DCs have already experienced it in their friendship groups too - it astonishes me that narc behaviour can start so young, but there you go. We’re lucky in that we have a very open and communicative relationship with the DCs and we talk a lot about what they’re experiencing and how they might avoid or deal with narc behaviours now and in the future.

Apropos of nothing, I feel like shouting from the rooftops "I LOVE MUMSNET" right now. What a valuable resource for women, a beacon of common sense, and what an amazing bunch of women here on FWR.

I have learnt so much from you all. Thank you everybody.

@MNHQ I hope you're feeling the love right now ❤️

with narcissists, accusations are admissions. When they're arguing, it's not with you: they're shouting at themselves in the mirror.

I've never heard this before but it is probably the truest sentence I have ever read. Thank you.