transgender supportive, TRA unsupportive

[polarpig]

Am I the only feminist who supports people who are transgender who are living their life as a woman and getting on with it with the minimum amount of fuss, with the support of their partner and not creating TRA style controversy?

I know a lovely transgender woman who I consider to be family and she is just getting on with her life with the minimum of fuss. She is transgender at home and work and is accepted by all and doesn't shout from the rooftops about it.

Exactly where I am. I can't imagine how frustrating and upsetting it must be for the majority of the trans community to see the TRAs claim to speak in their name.

I think if you actually read the threads on here, you will find that's the position of almost all of us.

We want to defend women's rights - so no male-bodied individuals in women's prisons, right to ask for a female HCP for smears, no male-bodied individuals in women's sports.

On the whole (can't speak for everyone on the board), we fully support all human beings' rights to dress, present, call themselves what they please. Trans people shouldn't be discriminated in jobs (barring a few proportionate exemptions under the equalities act for single sex provision) or in housing (ditto) or in healthcare (pace concerns over informed consent and well-meaning but naive parents over-enthusiastically transing children).

I do wonder, given that this point has been made many, many times on here, why you feel the need to start a thread about it? Not looking for screenshots, are you?

I don't think there is anybody here who doesn't support transgender people OP.

No, I don't want screenshots. I just wanted to start a thread because of having a transwoman in my family and I support them but it feels like I am in a minority.

What gamer said

That's me that is. I have several trans friends and am happy to stand by them if they are discriminated against.

They haven't changed sex though, and there are some areas in life where women need protection and segregation because of their sex.

Agree with PPs the key message I pick up from mumsnet is support for rights and respect for all.

OP if you’re looking for a chatboard where many might need to heed your message maybe post in Kiwifarms or one of the various forums that aren’t coming from that point of view.

people can live their lives according to whatever gender stereotype they like but they can't change sex and I won't be forced into believing that they can, and thus with that I won't accept male people of any persuasion into female spaces.

All I am asking for is that women's biological rights and protections remain.

I can sometimes feel the same about mumsnet OP. I think there are people on here who confuse being anti-TRA with anti-trans, and that the resulting posts do appear to be anti-trans sometimes. The facts that trans people do have rights, need support and safety are sometimes overlooked by MN as a group in my opinion. But there are a lot of individuals, probably the vast majority here who do feel like you.

I think the appearances on here can be because TRAs are shouting so loudly, to counter that people on here feel the need to shout loudly and clearly about the women's rights that are being eroded, instead of presenting a balanced discussion that considers everybody.

This is why many people here are constantly specifying TRAs or transgenderism (as an ideology) to show that it is not the ordinary trans person with GD trying to live their life being criticised.

Most ordinary trans people live their lives through mutual consent not bullying and abuse with a constant need for validation. I remember reading a survey that was done asking trans people about their main concerns (wish I could find it again). Self-id and TRA-type 'what is a woman' nonsense didn't feature. They wanted better access to medical care, had concerns about jobs, housing and old age, worried about abuse in the street (usually by men).

Just think, if we didn't have to waste time arguing that biological men are different from biological women and one does not become the other we could have done so much work on how to support trans people as they are. How to develop a toolbox with a range of researched methods to help people with GD and those struggling with their bodies

I agree OP. I know posters are saying the Feminist board is anti TRA not anti trans, but a lot of posters do stray into pretty negative posting about trans people (no I am not going to provide quotes - look for yourself!).

As we have a much loved and valued transwoman in our close circle the tone of many of the posts here makes me feel uncomfortable, hence I avoid it.

My impression has always been that the posters on here are supportive of trans people - just not supportive of the TRA ideology which seeks to take away the rights of women and girls, and, as intrinsic part of that, to deny basic biology.
I think the natural “allies” of trans people are often women, and often feminists. In life I have come up against genuine transphobia where people express a disgust or mockery of trans people. I’ve always challenged that. That is why it is such a shame that TRAs are creating conflict - placing all reasonable people, including previous “allies” (I’ve come to hate that word) on a “side” that can be portrayed inaccurately, or for political aims, as “transphobic” - against trans people. It does trans people a disservice.

I also do think your post,OP, is disingenuous. I came to this page thinking why on earth are people so anti- trans. Then I started reading. It’s clear that “feminist chat” is not anti trans. You need to separate criticism of TRA ideology from genuine transphobia. I get really angry at being accused of being of “transphobe”, “anti trans” or “terf”.

You may be in the minority's simply due to the number of trans people there are in the UK, but you are not in the minority's in MN when it comes to being supportive of trans people. The the trans ideology that most of us have the problem with. For me it's #nodebate that, amounts other things, trans peaked me.

Please don't mistake one for the other, I feel deeply for the number of trans people living peacefully for decades being completely traumatised and having their lives disrupted by this new language and entitled demands being made that will cause nothing but distress and bring unwanted attention to them.

Please look deeper into what it is that most of us actually say and the reasons why.

no I am not going to provide quotes - look for yourself!

This smearing style of posting is really very dishonest.

Just think, if we didn't have to waste time arguing that biological men are different from biological women and one does not become the other we could have done so much work on how to support trans people as they are. How to develop a toolbox with a range of researched methods to help people with GD and those struggling with their bodies

Who is we though? I don't think it's the job of women and specifically feminist women to fix men that have issues with their gender.

I don't wish harm or trans people and of course they should have the same rights as anyone else but I'm not going to pretend that the notion of being a women reduced to outward gender stereotypes isn't harmful to females and that's regardless of whether an individual is a vocal TRA or not.

The entire ideology is damaging to women and girls (and males in some cases) and that doesn't cease to be the case just because some individuals are nice people otherwise.

I'm not supportive of any male who uses women's spaces.

I'm not supportive of anyone who encourages the transing of children.

Otherwise, why wouldn't I be supportive of anyone who just wants to live happily and safely?

Being called 'anti - trans' is a real silencer. But if you really want to see transphobia in action go and have a look below the line on the Telegraph, Pistonheads, Kiwi Farms and a host of other online places. Yet men people make a beeline for this board and try to police the spoken word of women. Funny that.

Many of us have the most liberal credentials you'll find with proven track records of fighting all types of discrimination. Trans people have (and must continue to have) all the democratic rights of the rest of society. The problem is when some trans individuals / organisations try to remove the rights of others, especially women and target / gaslight children. Then we speak out.

I've known trans people since the 80s in one form or other (socially or through work or as my student) And always supported their right to express themselves as they wish. It really is nobody's business.

However no trans woman can live as a woman. They do not have the same common ground as women, they are not subject to the same discrimination, health issues, job prospects or reduction in them, they don't take an average 20% pay cut, they will not have wrecked bodies from childbirth, brittle bones from an early menopause, reduction in pension if they took time away from work to bring up a family etc etc etc.

What they are doing is living as trans women, and that is fine, but different. It is not mean to point out they they do not need smear tests but will need prostate cancer checks.

So I cannot parrot the mantra TWAW as it is not true.

And that is before we get to the authorities putting women and girls at greater risks just to satisfy a vocal minority of activists.

If people stop pushing back on this just so they appear 'not mean', women and girls will lose all the rights they have spent 100 years trying to get enshrined in law. It is unlikely to really affect me, but I can extrapolate and see how it can affect other more vulnerable people. If you think that is being mean then that is your right but it affects every female on the planet and my support is for them, not someone who had all the privileges of being male before they decided to 'live as a woman'.

''Live as a woman'' is fine and noble until you get to the reality of why women have single sex spaces and services such as psychiatric wards and prisons.

Be nice all you like, just don't be fooled into handing over the sexed based rights that less well off women than you depend upon.

What’s all this supporting stuff that feminists are meant to do

Transgender people have got legal rights same as everybody else

What’s this supporting then ?

Good question littlbrowndog

Having now read quite a few threads at KF, I feel it's it fair to mention that a good many of the responses there are sympathetic to old school transsexuals- protective even- but yes, they're open about disdain for AGPs and trenders.

... and any grifter using a 'trans' identity to get a pass for their activities.