transgender supportive, TRA unsupportive

[polarpig]

Am I the only feminist who supports people who are transgender who are living their life as a woman and getting on with it with the minimum amount of fuss, with the support of their partner and not creating TRA style controversy?

I know a lovely transgender woman who I consider to be family and she is just getting on with her life with the minimum of fuss. She is transgender at home and work and is accepted by all and doesn't shout from the rooftops about it.

I know a lovely transgender woman who I consider to be family and she is just getting on with her life with the minimum of fuss. I have never seen anyone attack what could be called old style trans. Transwomen post on here and there's a lot of support for transwomen speaking out against TRAs. There are 3 things I'm critical of - the attack on women's rights to single sex spaces, the transing of children and the ideology which believes humans can change sex.
The dilemma is how to protect your friend while stopping the aggressive behaviour and tactics of the TRAs. At the moment I can't see how defeating the trans lobby is not the priority for everyone including you friend.

The problem as I see it, OP, is that you can't just treat someone as the opposite sex for all purposes and ignore the effects on others.

I have an autistic son, and the watchword throughout school has been reasonable adjustment to enable him to take part in activities, as they would for children with other disabilities or differences.

Many women need single-sex facilities. My son needs a quiet, dimly lit space to destress. Putting males into female facilities is like whacking up the lights and sounds in my son's quiet room, and then telling him not to be so prejudiced against deaf and visually impaired children.

Transwomen post on here and there's a lot of support for transwomen speaking out against TRAs.

The fact that TRAs call these people TRUSCUM should be a massive red flag for anyone who cares to notice.

You’re not in the minority, most people feel the same way and if you do read the threads here, you’ll see support for people like Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton and others. However it is not the job of feminists to advocate and campaign for other groups, feminism centres women. So you will see a lot of threads on the problematic TRA’s, because they threaten women’s existing rights.

When people accuse women us of being anti-trans, I just give them examples of women working for female-to-male transmen, when everyone else looks the other way and ignores their needs.

For instance...... The government department of Women & Equalities proudly announced a health initiative for LBGT women, specifically mentioning lesbians and transwomen.

It was women who pointed out that, yet again, the female sex was last in the queue. They pointed out that it was more important to the government to validate MTfs than deal with the very real and present health challenges facing transmen.

The LGBT health organisations wouldn't dream of standing up for transmen, if it meant that transwomen's feelings were hurt. In fact, they were silent. They consistently show that they don't care about the female sex. Women stand up for FtMs all the time.

Another example would be the groundswell of concern about teenage transmen. It was places like Mumsnet that cared while the trans lobby used girls on the autism spectrum to further the cause for self i/d. History will judge whether the trans lobby acted in the intrests of teenage transmen. Personally, I think the women's movement may have stopped a catastrophe in the making.

When people accuse feminists/mumsnet/women of being anti-trans, we just point to a record of including transmen in our feminism. We don't care about your gender. It is meaningless to women. Transmen are adult human females, transwomen are not.

You're right, OP, you are the only feminist on here who supports lovely transgender women just trying to live their lives without being attacked by horrible ugly lesbians and everyone else on here is a literal NAZI who wants trans people to die screaming and there is plenty of evidence of that in this site only why should I look it up for you do your own emotional labour I'm not here to school you basic human rights are not up for debate and anyway you're lovely and everyone else isn't.

You're probably prettier too

I have to say, posts like this pretty much epitomise why I largely can't be bothered with the Feminism board.

living their life as a woman

What does this mean?

I have to say, posts like this pretty much epitomise why I largely can't be bothered with the Feminism board

It's just sarcasm. Women can be sarcastic too.

Jesus, girls are getting theirs breasts removed and the skin around their forearms taken off and reshaped into pahlluses, and it is sarcasm that upsets you?

I am not upset, I just can't be bothered engaging with such strident nonsense. It is not 'just sarcasm' it is putting words in the mouth of the OP and me that we never said in order to be pointlessly nasty. I don't see any way forward for discussion with those sort of posts being defended.

it's one post. You're going to disengage because of one post?

Well that is your decision to make.

Can't be bothered engaging to protect women and girls because one poster was sarcastic to an OP.

Interesting.

it's one post. You're going to disengage because of one post?

No, you will note I said that post epitomises a certain tone on the Feminist board. As demonstrated by another poster instantly jumping in to defend it. It is this style of debate I find so detrimental to any sort of discussion that, like many I suspect, I just decide I really can't be bothered even going there.

so, one post defended by one poster, on one thread. Nope, not getting that that's indicative of anything.

You might as well not be on MN at all if you're going to be bothered by sarcastic posts.

As demonstrated by another poster instantly jumping in to defend it

I didn't defend it. I just pointed out it was just sarcasm. You know, women are allowed to be sarcastic if they want.

As we have a much loved and valued transwoman in our close circle the tone of many of the posts here makes me feel uncomfortable, hence I avoid it.

That the problem. It is sometimes difficult to say no to a friend and prioritize women and girls that you don't know. But that's why feminism exists to prioritize women and girls, sometime making others feel not centered.

This is your periodic reminder that on FWR, the focus of topics is the rights and protections of women and girls, and the only reason trans anything is discussed here is when it intersects with those rights and protections negatively.

If a law about trans people provides a wedge by which predatory men may access female victims, it is relevant to discuss it here. If the requirement to 'live as a woman' feeds into all sorts of harmful stereotypes about women's lives, it is relevant to discuss it here.

The fact that there are people who believe themselves to be trans is not something any of us deny, and all of us have been quite happy in the past to acknowledge that trans anyone should be free from unfair discrimination such as losing their job or not getting housing because they are trans. But those issues are not feminist issues, and they don't find a home here because Feminism is not about solving all the issues of everyone ever.

This board centres women and girls, and that is an exclusive designation of those who were born into it. There are many, many places where the desires of the male born are focused upon. This isnt one of them.

Yeah, I'm not doing this 'but I'm actually really nice, honest! Not like those other mean feminists.' dance.

I'm woman supportive (the old cunty kind.) Why don't TRAs try that for a change?

What most other posters have said.

I also believe in biology and a Transwoman is not a woman. I realise this is the bit that will get backs up. And I have recently stopped apologising for that.

This is your periodic reminder that on FWR, the focus of topics is the rights and protections of women and girls, and the only reason trans anything is discussed here is when it intersects with those rights and protections negatively.

Just what I was about to say.

I'm women and girls supportive. I prioritise the welfare of women and girls and child protection. That OP can't even imagine such political and social priorities because it doesn't occur that there even is such a thing as failing to centre males, makes me very sad.

I don't centre males. I centre women and girls. Don't care which ideology is bad for women and girls - be it patriarchal religion, MRA activism, extreme genderism.

Not interested in what suits anyone born with a penis. Interested in what liberates women and girls and makes them realise centring penis in their thinking is the opposite of liberating.

Agree totally Polarpig. Debbie Hayton and other transwomen have definitely warned that the TRA approach risks creating a backlash for all the nice people trying to live the best lives they can. Other campaigning groups have tried to create alliances to achieve reform. People who want women to die in a fat fire are not going to serve the interests of 'ordinary' trans people.

I have a friend - well, a former colleague to be more accurate as I've not spoken to them since I changed jobs - who has posted a lot on social media this last year about their FtM transition. I've watched all their YouTube videos on it and my heart breaks for them. I knew them back when they were still living as a woman and were open about being a lesbian. They seemed happy. Since watching their videos I've learnt that they received years of homophobic bullying for being lesbian, pressure from peers to dress in "girly" clothes, had a long term eating disorder, lost many of their childhood male friends once they began puberty because the boys grew stronger and taller and didn't want to play football with them anymore, and self harmed. They also belong to a religious community that strongly opposed them being lesbian. They describe being grateful to sites like Tumblr because "without it they would never have known they were really trans". They describe how the same people who bullied them for being lesbian now cheer and support for them as they transition to being a straight man, including their religious community. They describe the distress they feel when they don't "pass" and cry saying "I wasn't girl enough then and I'll never be man enough now". Their transition process involved 2 sessions with a specialist before being put on testosterone and after 6 months on testosterone they have now been approved for a double mastectomy. They hope that this will finally make them "man enough" to relieve their dysphoria.

I'm fucking gutted for them. Have I said anything to them? No. Would I ever say anything to them? No. They're 21 now, old enough to make their own choices. And the main reason I never post anything gender critical on facebook is that I don't want to cause them any distress. But I'm fucking gutted for them and I blame the TRAs for what's happening to them. I 100% support trans people, but part of that is a strong desire to protect them from what I see as a dangerous group of religious zealots. I suspect most of the GC mumsnet posters feel the same.

Any male person who doesn't respect women's need for single sex spaces is a problem for women rights. It doesn't matter if they are very vocal about their use of women's spaces online, or quietly do it anyway without an announcement on twitter.

I very rarely post on this board, which has pages and pages of women patiently explaining why defending the rights of women and girls isn't transphobic and I make one (1!) sarcastic and unconstructive post and BOOM people like TheNavigator decide I "epitomise a certain tone on the Feminist board". One post, and I'm the representative of an entire group I don't even participate in regularly. It's magic!

Anyway, I apologise to the patient women on here discussing this question in good faith for derailing the thread by being rude and unladylike and I've asked for my comment to be removed.

As is frequently stated on twitter, #transrightsarehumanrights and I think that statement would get unanimous support on this discussion group.
However, giving additional privileges of one characteristic over another i.e gender identity over sex, is discrimination against people of that sex. So that's where the issue lies, and what we are arguing about.

No individual deserves to be harassed or abused or oppressed because of who they are - we all deserve to live our lives with our boundaries and choices being respected, but we can't all get our own way all of the time.