If everyone was gender-non-conforming...

[lionelduty]

On these boards we seem to think that being GNC in various ways is great (I hate how gendered kids' clothes, toys, etc are and hate that I feel weird buying my son pink or flowery clothes).

It's also stated quite often that most people can 'tell' if someone's a natal male or female just by looking, but I've genuinely seen people I honestly am unsure about (and plenty of transmen on TV that I would have had no idea weren't born male).

Would life actually be better if we couldn't tell anyone's sex from how they presented? We actually would need to ask pronouns and in single-sex spaces wouldn't be sure if someone wasn't 'supposed' to be there. Do we actually need some sort of gendered shorthand to function as a society or would there be some sort of freedom in removing it?

(Just my idle thoughts but interested in people's views)

As a child I remember asking if Michael Jackson was a man or a woman*

Well this isn't a great example, is it? Considering how cosmetically altered his appearance was.

Identifying sex is often done merely by biological differences (size, shape, voice etc.) but on top of this most people do present their sex via clothing hair etc. because it makes life easier for themselves and everyone else.

It slows down casual social interactions, adds confusion at the start of meeting someone, and creates awkwardness. It's useful to know someone's sex automatically.

Not everyone will conform to typical gender appearance, behaviour and clothing etc. and that's fine. But most people will, so the only way to reach the near future fantasy would be by authority imo.

Yes, gendered presentation is how society creates that visual shorthand that tries to smooth interactions - the skirted figure on a female toilet etc.

But the incongruence of a person who at first glance is dressed like the Queen, for example, but has a deeper voice, large skeleton, strong jawline etc. than a typical woman, will cause a human to do a double take precisely because those physical characteristics are so very hard to disguise even with our strong social conditioning.

Removing the gendered presentation won't do anything to remove the physical characteristics. So, while I am totally on board with the aim of destroying the restrictions of Gender, it is truly unrelated to the realities of sex differences, and the accommodations that should be in place to provide the necessary protections for the sex that is more vulnerable physically- women.

Has anyone read a book by Josephine Tey called To Love and be Wise? Available on Kindle. Nice and short and interesting in this context.

It slows down casual social interactions, adds confusion at the start of meeting someone, and creates awkwardness. It's useful to know someone's sex automatically

I don’t wear make up, have short hair, short nails, no jewellery, nearly always wear work trousers or jeans with boots and a t-shirt.

Not once has anyone been “confused” about my gender on meeting me. Nobody has ever had to clarify, no one has ever asked me my pronouns, they have automatically used female.

Apart from the sexist arseholes who assume I am male because I am “Dr Really”, and are confused when a woman turns up.

Which makes me think- i could say i am GNC because i don’t subscribe to the social expectation of “feminine”. But on the other hand I don’t think I am GNC because i dress for practicality and comfort- i don’t think I wear “mens clothes” or clothes that would be rejected by any other woman.

Once, about five years ago and long before transgenderism was a mainstream "thing" in the Western world, I went on a tour of a factory in a poor country. One of the people who showed me around was introduced as Mr xxxx and referred to by a male colleague as he and him. The person was dressed in male clothing. He was black, with closely cropped hair. He was very short, shorter than me and I am medium height for a woman, and had boobs. The clothing was male: white shirt tucked into trousers with a fly. To me, he looked like a woman in men's clothing, but of course I accepted the introduction and called him Mr xxxx. That was my first transman, my first real life transperson ever! (I did know one transwoman in a forum i was a member of)

If we genuinely couldn't tell someone's sex just by looking at them, then we would all have the same body type and shape, in which case sex discrimination wouldn't exist, because there would be nothing to base it on, and male on female violence wouldn't be as much of an issue because males and females would all be a similar size and strength, and also males wouldn't be able to tell just from looking if someone was "worth" sexually harassing/assaulting. Presumably we would all be bisexual, because males and females would all look the same, so I guess the birth rate would have been dramatically lower throughout history, because there would only be a 33% chance of any given mating pair having the right equipment to reproduce.

It's an interesting thought experiment... there would probably be some advantages, as well as disadvantages, but there's not much point dwelling on it because it's never going to happen.

If we couldn't distinguish sex from appearance, we'd almost certainly have evolved to do it (more) by smell. My dog can certainly distinguish women from men - I doubt it's by appearance.

I don't wear makeup, have short hair and always wear trousers - but I wouldn't say I was gender non conforming because I am within the gender rules for my culture. Another time or place and I wouldn't be. Victorian England say or even 1950's. In fact, given my age I am well within acceptable female presentation.

errol so can mine! it really winds me up actually because he never sniffs mens bottoms.....

I know what sexuality means bertrand, but I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming

This is muddled up thinking.

It's obviously not the norm to be same sex attracted, so being LGB is most definitely not conforming to societal norms because societal norms are very hetero, but it doesn't have much to do with specifically gendered conformity. Gender is to do with how you present yourself to the world.

Eg you will get women who wear heels and lippy who are same-sex attracted. They are gender conforming. You get very "macho" very masculine gay men. They are gender confirming. They are not conformists on a societal level by virtue of being openly gay but they are still gender conforming.

Sexuality and gender "expression" / ideology (?) are completely seperate.

I don't think humans like uncertainty and this is why not knowing which sex someone is throws them.
However this could just be because we want to be able to have some framework based on our cultural and social environment in which to operate.
If there was no preconceived attitude to sex then maybe open curiosity and interest could prevail.

On a side note I was trying to think of a culture in which the sexes did not adopt different clothes or hair etc....Amazon Indians?

I think people feel uncomfortable when they sense someone is disguising their sex. It's that feeling of deception that bothers people.

People who are resisting gender rules inspire a different response. It's to do with not conforming to the group. You might want to bully them for not fitting in, you might find them admirable or inspiring.

It is very important for women to be able to tell the sexes apart, hence we are extremely good at it. Our safety relies on it.

I attended a Thai cooking class recently and the chef teaching us could have been male or female, we just couldn't tell. And we didn't like not knowing. It wasn't a problem, it wasn't in the least bit uncomfortable, it couldn't have mattered less whether chef was male or female to me, but it was interesting to hear the views of the group - almost everyone really wanted to know whether our teacher was a he or a she. These were middle aged, middle class people, probably never heard of 'trans' but didn't like not knowing. Odd.

Gender is to do with how you present yourself to the world.

Not exclusively. Gender is all the expectations, restrictions and demands placed on an individual in a certain culture based on their physical sex. There is a strong argument to be made that homosexuality does not conform to gender expectations.

what do the dogs do differently with men/women?! errol and stillathing

arken did you find your brain chewing it over to try and resolve the question of whether they were m/f? Rather than concentrating on what they were doing/saying? I have found this....

A long time ago I went into a tiny shop with DF. The person behind the counter was very tall, heavy, pale and hairless. They had a male looking torso but wide hips. The clothes were no help - a very big t-shirt and joggers. We bought what we'd come for and left. I hoped the shopkeeper hadn't noticed the barely perceptible pause before we spoke.

DF and I got a distance away and turned to each other. I could tell by his face that he was thinking what I was thinking.

Neither of us had the faintest idea which sex this person was - and DF's a GP. The physical cues were contradictory. And both of us were amazed at how totally discombobulated we were by this uncertainty.

If you can't tell which sex someone is at first glance your brain gets kinda paused. You keep trying to decide. DF said he guessed the shopkeeper had a DSD, but had no idea which.

A very weird and memorable experience.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Situations like that are even more awkward in countries where the language requires you to gender the person you are addressing. In some places it is rude to say "here you are" when handing over the money, for example - by the norms of politeness, you have to say "here you are, madam/sir".

I've been thinking about China under Mao, when millions upon millions of city dwellers and factory workers, male and female, were expected or encouraged to wear virtually identical outfits. No make-up, no jewellery, no fancy hair. What was that like, in reality, I wonder?

A long time ago I went into a tiny shop with DF. The person behind the counter was very tall, heavy, pale and hairless. They had a male looking torso but wide hips

Klinefelters?

“During puberty, the physical traits of the syndrome become more evident; because these boys do not produce as much testosterone as other boys, they have a less muscular body, less facial and body hair, and broader hips”

yknow, the person I saw on tv. I have only seen someone confirm their gender as male but now I realise they may be a trans male. So I'm probably none the wiser.

No make-up, no jewellery, no fancy hair. What was that like, in reality, I wonder?

I was thinking about that as well. I have to say I'm a teeny bit sceptical of the protestations on here that everyone can wear what they want. It often feels that there is the qualification that "as long as it's practical, comfortable and not frivolous" .

I imagine it was horrible- as everything else was under Maoism. Or do you think that as no one was "performing femininity" it was a radical feminist utopia?

Can you give initials lionel ?

sorry I'm not trying to be secretive or anything but i'd rather not as they seem absolutely lovely and I'd hate the possibility of causing any discomfort.