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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If everyone was gender-non-conforming...

130 replies

lionelduty · 02/04/2019 21:51

On these boards we seem to think that being GNC in various ways is great (I hate how gendered kids' clothes, toys, etc are and hate that I feel weird buying my son pink or flowery clothes).

It's also stated quite often that most people can 'tell' if someone's a natal male or female just by looking, but I've genuinely seen people I honestly am unsure about (and plenty of transmen on TV that I would have had no idea weren't born male).

Would life actually be better if we couldn't tell anyone's sex from how they presented? We actually would need to ask pronouns and in single-sex spaces wouldn't be sure if someone wasn't 'supposed' to be there. Do we actually need some sort of gendered shorthand to function as a society or would there be some sort of freedom in removing it?

(Just my idle thoughts but interested in people's views)

OP posts:
Fridasrage · 02/04/2019 22:54

Also, for people saying they’ve never seen a trans woman who passed.. observation bias. You’re unlikely to know if someone is stealth trans and passes.

Justhadathought · 02/04/2019 22:56

Besides aren't most people 'gender non-conforming' in certain/many areas of their lives? People are just people and have individual character traits which don't conform to gendered stereotypes.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/04/2019 22:57

Maybe if you post a photo we can help you work out the sex of the person.

Er, no, hope you didn't really mean to post a photo without someone's consent?

Datun · 02/04/2019 22:57

There are 6500 genetic differences between men and women. Mostly you can tell.

If someone is determined to disguise themselves to the point where you can't tell, then that's part of transgenderism, isn't it?

If you suddenly, can't rely on a whole swathe of people to be honest, then they have to take the consequences for that. Not us.

NowtSalamander · 02/04/2019 22:58

Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series gives dwarves no visible sex differentiation - that’s the closest we’ll get to this thought experiment in this world I think...Smile

lionelduty · 02/04/2019 23:05

aha! I knew someone would have thought this through better than me!

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lionelduty · 02/04/2019 23:10

I'm not posting a picture of the person.
Having googled them a bit (google autocomplete suggests many others have searched) my initial - albeit ever-changing - assumption was wrong, and they are male. They might have been the inspiration for these wonderings, actually!

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MsTiggywinkletoyou · 02/04/2019 23:51

Also, lots of languages don't have he/she pronouns. It doesn't magically make those societies less sexist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

lionelduty · 03/04/2019 00:04

I guess then my next question would be: at what point does 'gender bending' or not conforming to gender stereotypes become 'deception'? Wearing clothes that hide or minimise the breasts? Wearing scarves to hide Adam's apples?
(I'm not saying everyone could pass as the opposite sex or non-binary, btw, but there must be loads who could at least make it unclear).

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lionelduty · 03/04/2019 00:09

There wouldn’t need to be women’s only spaces imo as long as women and men both had (on average) indistinguishable physical size and strength, because then any potential predators wouldn’t know the sex of their potential victims

Interesting point!

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FloralBunting · 03/04/2019 00:18

It must be a total mystery to some people how the human race has been around for so long, so successfully, given their complete confidence that it's so, so hard to distinguish sex.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/04/2019 00:50

at what point does 'gender bending' or not conforming to gender stereotypes become 'deception'?

It's deception if you try to obscure your sex in any context where it actually matters.

Those include, well, sex; women's sport; intimate care; shared accommodation....

But most of the time, most jobs, it shouldn't matter.

LassOfFyvie · 03/04/2019 01:02

and without wanting to sound like a dick there are plenty of non-feminine looking women that I wouldn't immediately be able to tell with absolute certainty

Are there? Maybe of course they are so non-feminine they had me completely fooled but I can't say this is my experience.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/04/2019 01:07

Maybe some people are more or less perceptive than others - whether through nature or nurture?

Fridasrage · 03/04/2019 01:21

It must be a total mystery to some people how the human race has been around for so long, so successfully, given their complete confidence that it's so, so hard to distinguish sex.

OP Did actually ask...
Would life actually be better if we couldn't tell anyone's sex from how they presented?

Which is a hypothetical question.

TheSandman · 03/04/2019 01:25

Gingerkittykat Tue 02-Apr-19 22:33:57

My DD is what you would probably call gender non conforming, identifies as female but chooses to dress almost exclusively in jeans, hoodies, Doc Martens and has short hair
....
She has been mistaken for a boy, once an old man in the bus struck up a conversation and kept calling her "son" which she found amusing.
...
I would love to smash down some gender stereotypes.

My oldest DD (who came out when she was 12) loves it when she gets mistaken for a boy. So much so that I regularly call her 'son' when I need to get her into a good mood.

Nicest piece of gender neutrality I came across recently was in a cafe in Glasgow. The toilets are no longer 'Male' and 'Female' (or 'Men' and 'Women' or whatever it was before) they are now labelled: ' Toilets with urinals and cubicles' and 'Toilets with cubicles only'.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/04/2019 01:31

Loos marked 'Male' and 'Female' are gender-neutral, but single sex. 'Loos with urinals and cubicles' are pretty clearly single sex, Male; loos with cubicles only are mixed sex. Not nice at all.Hmm
(The Barbican got a lot of bad press when it did that misguided labelling)

LassOfFyvie · 03/04/2019 01:38

Nicest piece of gender neutrality I came across recently was in a cafe in Glasgow. The toilets are no longer 'Male' and 'Female' (or 'Men' and 'Women' or whatever it was before) they are now labelled: ' Toilets with urinals and cubicles' and 'Toilets with cubicles only'

Centre for Contemporary Arts in Sauchiehall Street?

JaneJeffer · 03/04/2019 02:13

I was looking at a story linked from another thread earlier about a trans woman. In the before photo his features looked very feminine but when he put on make up and a wig he looked more masculine!

Fairenuff · 03/04/2019 02:31

So the person you saw on tv you thought was male but were not sure?

Then you googled them and found out that they are male.

So you were able to correctly identify their sex after all.

Most of us can. It's very easy. Even children can do it.

Lamaha · 03/04/2019 03:59

I read somewhere that on the unconscious level, the very first thing we register on meeting a new person is their sex. I would think it is probably the most important thing to know about a new person; as with all mammals, nature has designed us first of all with the urge to reproduce, thus the surge of hormones in puberty and the huge emotional turmoil in adolescence as we sort out who we want to be with and who not. Even if we end up not wanting or not having children, our bodies are designed perfectly for that role. A young woman's body is constantly preparing itself for a child.

I was very clear from the start that I wanted children, pregnancy, childbirth, the whole thing, and I would not have been interested in any "man" who was actually female, even if she managed to fool me at first. I divorced my first husband mainly because he did not want kids and could not be persuaded otherwise.

Yet: I am gender non-conforming.
As a child I desperately wanted to be a boy, got my mum to add a name to be birth certificate which had a male variation, and was called that for many years. I had my hair cut short. I never once played with dolls which I despised; I liked reading and adventures and animals. That changed at puberty.

I had a short phase in my teens when I got into fashion and makeup, but only because it was the girl thing to do and I was just marching in step.

Since my teens I have never: worn make-up, worn high heels or any sort of fashionable women's shoes, shaved my legs or under my arms , dyed my hair (and won't ever; I'm 67, now getting my first grey hairs), won't ever be using Botox or anything such. I wear comfortable clothes, mostly trousers and jumpers, wide flat shoes or boots. I'm really uninterested in looking pretty or sexy.

In spite of all the above, I've never ever been mistaken for a man. In fact, I've been told I'm a very feminine woman as I am a soft-spoken, , non-assertive type, with strong caring tendencies, comfortable in my skin and not hankering for power, not at all career oriented.

So yes, externally non-conforming. The "womanliness", whatever that is, is all internal.

I'm sure that if you were to blindfold me and lead me into a room full of men, even if they were perfectly silent, I would know they were men. There's a certain male energy I'd be able to feel and identify. I can see past clothes.

lionelduty · 03/04/2019 07:45

fairenuff no, as I said - I thought they were probably female but they were male.

OP posts:
lionelduty · 03/04/2019 07:49

Most ppl have missed the point of my OP. The question is not that I go around not knowing if ppl are male or female Hmm but what would happen if there were more ppl where you couldn't immediately tell, or even if that was the case for everyone. (If everyone went out of their way to present as non-binary, I guess).

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lionelduty · 03/04/2019 07:51

(Partly inspired by accounts of lesbians being asked to leave female toilets etc)

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SimonJT · 03/04/2019 08:06

My friend Paris Lees is trans, she is very gender conforming.

I guess my sexuality is non-gender conforming, but everything else is typical to my gender, from the sport I like, clothes I wear etc.

I have had a few female friends who have received verbal abuse from other women for using the womens toilets as they are quite masc looking women.

Gender is a tricky thing as a parent, it is perfectly acceptable by most for a girl to be a ‘tom boy’, but it still isn’t acceptable for boys to do typically feminine things. I was actually called into nursery in October because my son likes playing with dolls, I doubt they phone the parents of girls for playing with trucks. Our whole idea of the male and female ideal is so ridiculous.

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