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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

If everyone was gender-non-conforming...

130 replies

lionelduty · 02/04/2019 21:51

On these boards we seem to think that being GNC in various ways is great (I hate how gendered kids' clothes, toys, etc are and hate that I feel weird buying my son pink or flowery clothes).

It's also stated quite often that most people can 'tell' if someone's a natal male or female just by looking, but I've genuinely seen people I honestly am unsure about (and plenty of transmen on TV that I would have had no idea weren't born male).

Would life actually be better if we couldn't tell anyone's sex from how they presented? We actually would need to ask pronouns and in single-sex spaces wouldn't be sure if someone wasn't 'supposed' to be there. Do we actually need some sort of gendered shorthand to function as a society or would there be some sort of freedom in removing it?

(Just my idle thoughts but interested in people's views)

OP posts:
MogPlus · 03/04/2019 08:07

Most people, no matter how they dress or wear their hair, will be recognisably male or female. We can normally tell a variety of ways, there will be obvious signs like whether they have breasts or not, or more subtle ones like how fat is distributed on their body or their gait.

If everyone dressed in a GNC way this wouldn't change these things. If anything I suspect that it'd become easier to tell the sexes apart because we'd be less distracted by presentation.

As it is now a clearly male body will sometimes - at a glance - be read as female purely because he has long hair. And I know I was mistaken for a boy when I was younger because I was fairly flat chested, wore non-girly clothes and had short hair, despite the fact that I still had a standard female body shape. This is because society is so set on associating presentation with sex/gender, lose that and we'd be looking at people differently.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 03/04/2019 08:17

OP, you say what would happen if there were more ppl where you couldn't immediately tell.

My response is that I would find the situation terrifying until you could eradicate the potential risk that men pose to women. That's one of the main reasons women are so good at discerning someone's sex..

Tbh I think it's a bit pointless as it could only come about if we stopped being a sexually dimorphic species.

Sex is really easy to distinguish. When I was young I was wildly promiscuous, often while pissed. And yet I never ended up with surprise genitals. Weird that.

Jinglejanglefish · 03/04/2019 08:40

I guess my sexuality is non-gender conforming.

That is not a sexuality. Completely different things.

SimonJT · 03/04/2019 08:42

I know it isn’t, but a persons sexuality can reflect a gender norm/not reflect it.

Original poster
lionelduty · 03/04/2019 08:43

Mogplus, yes I thought the same thing. Once we stop having semi-reliable 'shortcuts' to id sex, we'd become more perceptive re biological cues.

OP posts:
Original poster
lionelduty · 03/04/2019 08:49

I hate that it's still 'not normal' for boys to like pink etc. My son loves trucks trains etc bit also flowery pink purple sparkly stuff. His pre school is great and happy for boys to dress up in girls' costumes etc but I hate that I still think twice about buying him 'girl's' clothes - and why do the girls' clothes have to be quite SO ott in the mainstream shops? You can't just buy pink jogging bottoms, they have to have bows or ruffles on or be leggings. (Bit of a derail, sorry!)

OP posts:
drspouse · 03/04/2019 08:55

a persons sexuality can reflect a gender norm/not reflect it.
In what way?

Lamaha · 03/04/2019 09:09

@lionelduty Such a situation would not last long. We have a need to know. Complete gender neutrality is a myth. The need to know is part of our genetic programming; it's part of nature's plan for the propagation of the species. If we erase all the markers we now have we would develop others. Or we would develop a finer instinct which would tell us who is male and who is female. We cannot erase biology.

As I said above: on an unconscious level we are always trying to figure it out.

SimonJT · 03/04/2019 09:26

Drspouse I may have got my English wrong, I had always been under the impression that in English sexuality can be a reflection of your gender conformity. Apologies if my English isn’t correct.

drspouse · 03/04/2019 09:28

I'm not sure that's right though, as sex and gender are different. You can have very feminine and very masculine gay men and lesbians, for example.

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2019 09:32

“I don't want to name them but there is a person on TV I'm genuinely unsure about their sex ”

Why don’t you want to name them?

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2019 09:38

“I had always been under the impression that in English sexuality can be a reflection of your gender conformity”
Sexuality means your sexual preference. Which in my opinion means straight, gay or bi. Although I come from a generation where bi was considered by activists as a cop out.

OrchidInTheSun · 03/04/2019 09:41

The thing about your friend Paris Lees is that despite all the thousands of pounds of surgery and all rehearsed femininity, I could tell she was trans on that Survival programme, even if I hadn't known. Uncanny valley territory

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2019 09:43

I thought your friend Paris Lees was taking a mental health break from social media. Probably not then a good idea to use her as an example on here? Just a thought?

Isadora2007 · 03/04/2019 09:49

Er, no, hope you didn't really mean to post a photo without someone's consent?

What a screen grab from tv or a link would surely be totally fine given they are on tv and clearly not hiding away?

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 03/04/2019 09:53

I have had a few female friends who have received verbal abuse from other women for using the womens toilets as they are quite masc looking women.

I keep hearing this claim but have never come across it in real life.

SimonJT · 03/04/2019 09:57

Bertrand, no, she still heavily uses twitter, instagram etc.

SimonJT · 03/04/2019 09:58

I know what sexuality means bertrand, but I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming.

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2019 10:00

I think the “verbal abuse” might be something like what I said to a very obviously male presenting man in a loo recently “I think you might have come in the wrong door” to which he replied “Oh, i’m so sorry, I think I have”

Or it could possibly be just plain homophobic abuse- still happens a lot- and nothing to do with male/female presentation alt all.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 03/04/2019 10:04

I don't want to name them but there is a person on TV I'm genuinely unsure about their sex.

Why don’t you want to name them?

Because I'd guess that inviting us all to gawp at pictures of this person trying to discern their sex - and then sharing our opinions - would qualify as "not in the spirit" and might get this thread deleted, BertrandRussell.

Put more simply, it seems mean to me.

SimonJT · 03/04/2019 10:06

As a child I remember asking if Michael Jackson was a man or a woman.

BertrandRussell · 03/04/2019 10:11

“Because I'd guess that inviting us all to gawp at pictures of this person trying to discern their sex - and then sharing our opinions - would qualify as "not in the spirit" and might get this thread deleted, BertrandRussell.

Put more simply, it seems mean to me.”

Yes of course you’re right. I just get so fed up of all this “secret squirrelling”. But in this case it’s entirely appropriate.

drspouse · 03/04/2019 10:41

I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming.

I suspect these are native English speakers who don't know their language very well.

FloralBunting · 03/04/2019 10:49

It's a completely hypothetical question because we don't really gauge the sex of a person based on whether they are GNC or not. That's the reason why certain people find themselves being called 'sir', much to their horror, even though they are wearing blush pink blouses and think they should therefore read as female.

Even if we were to all have identical haircuts and clothes, it would at most take a second look to tell with significant accuracy what sex the person is, because the physical characteristics are what humans use to make those assessments, and even with plastic surgery and other interventions, it's very rare to be able to disguise sex effectively for more than a well lit posed photo.

FloralBunting · 03/04/2019 10:54

I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming.

Tbf, I think this is accurate - a lesbian, by virtue of not being oriented towards males and male bodies, is not conforming to the gender box rules that do include heterosexuality as the norm. This is one of the reasons why the term 'cis lesbian' is such a nonsense.