Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would the world have been better off if women had a more dominant role over the past 2000 years?

367 replies

Trebe · 31/03/2019 18:32

Hi, this is my first time posting on here but this question has sparked my curiosity. Would like to find out the views from the feminist stand point. Now I get the feeling this question coukd get a little uncivil, that is not my intention but a little bit of tenacity and passion would be nice to see.

The reason I see this question getting messy is simple, at some point stereotypes and generalisations are almost certainly going to come into this. In some ways I welcome that because it means we are having an honest discussion. Some stereotyping about men and women is going to be impossible to avoid as we are guessing and generalising the history of the past 2000 years. So yes men are more violent and yes women are more emotional, these in general terms, are facts. I think to even remotely answer the question generalisations, are necessary. So no offence intended when I generalise both men and women.

Obviously over the past 2 millennia men have ruled the roost, so we could attribute every good thing or every bad thing that has happened to men. The question I'm trying to ask is would we have had more atrocities if women had a more dominant role in decision making? Would we be as technologically and scientifically advanced? Would we be a more empathetic and understanding society and civilisation?

As a man I like to and would like to think men did the best they could in certain areas such as war (over 2000 years wars will happen no matter who is in charge), the advancement of science and maths, architecture, art etc. There are things men are good at (in general, I'm only saying in general once as almost everything about this is generalised), organisation, logic, maths and massive over-generalisations! Anyway these things have given us great advancements but it has also caused a lot of suffering in the process.

The logical, organisational, scientific mind is what caused atrocities such as the holocaust. The organisation and systematic nature of the concentration camps came from such thinking. It begs the question would women have done similar things if they were in charge, or at least had equal influence. The simple statement I have on it is, the extermination of certain peoples may have still happened I'm just not so sure it would have been done in such a cold blooded and efficient manner. I firmly believe that only a male would conceive of concentration camps. So on the death, destruction and famine part I'm gonna side on women doing a 'better' job than men.

To the question of technological and scientific advancements, I claim indifference to an opinion on whether we would be more advanced or not. It is a very difficult question to have a solid opinion on to be honest. It's very difficult to know as women to a certain extent (Madame Curie being the obvious exception but there are others), have been for lack of a better word, excluded from the sciences especially in the first 50 years of the 20th century when a lot of important science we use today was being discovered. Some feminists, well usually misandrists to be fair, don't like to admit that we live in a world that was created by men and that includes the good things such as the massive and rapid advancements in technology, health and science. That I do believe is helped by the way the male brain works.

When it comes to things like art, poetry, architecture, religion, psychology (especially psychology), sociology and many more of the humanities could have done with the influence of women. We would have a massive wealth of extra art, literature, architecture, poetry, music and more just by women having a stronger input over the past 2000 years. When it comes to more recent times I think womens input into psychology would have been massive, I don't think we would have gone down such extreme routes to control people like we did with the holocaust if women had their input on things like behavioural psychology.

I think war would have been (as much as possible) more humane and over much quicker. Do I think women can wage war just like any other human? Of course I do, I also believe there would have been wars, I don't believe that war would disappear if men did. I just believe women wouldn't want the carnage, the salt the ground or scorched earth policies men have adopted in the past.

Anyway I'm sort of rambling so I'll conclude. I am basically trying to engage in a discussion about women over the past 2000 years but also the past couple of hundred of years. Yes I'm sure there is absolutely loads I could add to this but I would like to hear your views on the question at hand. Feel free to generalise as much as is necessary just don't try to do it to be a dick, do it because you have a point.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

OP posts:
BadPennyNoBiscuit · 01/04/2019 01:00

You are talking to women who are actual, real life activists. What do you do for mens rights?

FissionChips · 01/04/2019 01:01

Of course fission. You just don't want to share this valuable link to a webpage that would prove your point. You'd rather just post that you have it. Ok

Is not withholding info from you, it’s freely available online, just sick of all the men who post here demanding we provide evidence to support our points despite showing non themselves and often not even bothering to do some basic background reading.

Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:02

Nothing. I think the activism I've done for women is much more important and moral than I could ever do for men.

OP posts:
Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:04

Tell me the stats to read and I will. Cant be bothered posting a link but can bother with 7 replies. Yes sure, I believe you have the data to hand and understand it well enough to quote it.

OP posts:
BadPennyNoBiscuit · 01/04/2019 01:04

What do you mean by activism?
When we say activism, we mean hands on real life work, not online stuff.

Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:05

And back to the man thing again fission.

OP posts:
FissionChips · 01/04/2019 01:05

Well, you’ve replied lots but cba to look it up for yourself, seem fair enough to me.

Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:07

Rallies n protests when I was younger. Campaigned mainly in religious circles so they would include women priests/vicars. Thought that was where the biggest ill to women lies.

OP posts:
FissionChips · 01/04/2019 01:07

And back to the man thing again fission

Yes, because it’s men who do that on this forum. Why would I say women when women don’t do it? Confused

Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:08

I'm saying I don't know what you want me to look for. Should I search data that backs up fissions 'point'.

OP posts:
Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:10

Yes fission, ok. You're not being informative or discussing. So fair enough, you win.

OP posts:
BadPennyNoBiscuit · 01/04/2019 01:10

Glass escalator
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_escalator

''The term "glass escalator" was introduced by Christine L. Williams in her research "The Glass Escalator: Hidden Advantages for Men in the "Female" Profession"[1] published in August 1992. The glass escalator refers to the way men, namely heterosexual white men, are put on a fast track to higher up positions when entering women dominated sex-segregated professions. It is most present in lower levels of the profession. This idea is a parallel to the popular idea of the glass ceiling, where women face troubles advancing in the workplace.''

''Whether the career is women-dominated, men assume leadership positions at higher rates than women.''

FissionChips · 01/04/2019 01:13

I'm saying I don't know what you want me to look for. Should I search data that backs up fissions 'point'

Grin No, you simply go back to my points and search for data pertaining to them.
‘Fission says girls from single sex schools have a higher uptake of STEM A-levels than girls from mixed sex schools’ - why is that difficult for you to work out what to search for? Hmm

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 01/04/2019 01:15

These are Thee 7 Demands of the UK Women’s Liberation Movement
from 1971 to the present

(International Women’s Day 1971)

1 Equal pay.
2 Equal education and job opportunities.
3 Free contraception and abortion on demand.
4 Free 24hr nurseries.

(National Women’s Liberation Conference, 1975)

5 Financial and legal independence.
6 An end to all discrimination against lesbians and a woman’s right to define her own sexuality.

(National Women’s Liberation Conference, 1978)

7 Freedom from intimidation by threat or use of violence or sexual coercion, regardless of marital status and an end to all laws, assumptions and institutions which perpetuate male dominance and men’s aggression towards women.

We have not achieved a single one of these basic demands, and now womens rights are being abolished by new legislation that will abolish us as a legal class.

FissionChips · 01/04/2019 01:15

Pfft Badpenny, he can do the work himself if he’s so eager to learn.

FissionChips · 01/04/2019 01:17

Well, have to wake early so it’s goodnight from me.

Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:17

Because I want YOUR data. What are you basing your opinion on is what I'm getting at. Doesn't matter I'm not here to argue about nothing.

Badpenny, sounds like an interesting book. I'll have a look for a more recent study just because the fifty years preceding 1992 where the data is probably from I can very definitely see it being true.

OP posts:
Trebe · 01/04/2019 01:20

I'd say you have achieved quite a few of those rights, at least in the uk. You think none of them have been achieved?

OP posts:
BadPennyNoBiscuit · 01/04/2019 01:21

Nothing radical has changed since that study was published. Its still being used by academics today, they accept it as stated fact.

Here's a more recent study about bias and how men just dont see it;
''A similar gulf was seen in the perception of how female behaviours are judged at work. More than half (53 per cent) of women said female colleagues were judged more negatively than their male counterparts when exhibiting the same behaviours in the last 12 months.

In contrast, less than one in five (18 per cent) men noticed this happening to female colleagues over the same period.
Dr Jill Armstrong, lead researcher at the Collaborating with Men programme, which produced the research, told People Management there was still a “pressing need to make people aware that their colleagues might have an entirely different perspective of the workplace they share”. ''

www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/news/articles/women-being-judged-differently-at-work-says-survey?fbclid=IwAR0X-7rprEDOJaDn5lEct3Vq7Ca1ztyJrFRj50NDcTGvJiUYAq8IosITR1s

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 01/04/2019 01:30

I'd say you have achieved quite a few of those rights, at least in the uk. You think none of them have been achieved?

Which ones do you think women have? Not just in law or on paper, in reality where it counts.

  1. There is a pay gap.

  2. No, women don't get equal education or job opportunities. Education is for people who can afford it. womens career and pay take a hit after we have children and men are not affected.

  3. No, we have to pay for contraception and many women still cannot access an abortion if they cant pay for one.

  4. Nope, 30 hours a week is free for under 5's. If you can find a nursery with available space.

  5. No, women have smaller incomes and pensions, many women would like to work but have caring responsibilities so cannot.

  6. Lesbian rights are under attack as we speak.

  7. 2 women a week die at the hands of an ex or current partner, domestic violence costs the UK £66 billion a year, and sex trafficking is on the rise. Rape prosecutions are at an all time low.

No, we have not achieved any of those demands.

StarSpangledAnna · 01/04/2019 01:30

Gosh it's really "behold, a man" bingo in here. The entitlement is quite something.

Datun · 01/04/2019 02:04

I wonder if the OP realises how often this happens. And how similar the script is each time.

JuniperGinYay · 01/04/2019 07:04

I actually read the OP and being in a relaxed mood was going to reply a bit, then I scrolled to your belief about male logical brains and female empathetic ones and saw what a truly lost cause replying would be.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/04/2019 08:06

fission

Have i missed the OPs data and statistics?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/04/2019 08:08

badoenny

Shocking isnt it