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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would the world have been better off if women had a more dominant role over the past 2000 years?

367 replies

Trebe · 31/03/2019 18:32

Hi, this is my first time posting on here but this question has sparked my curiosity. Would like to find out the views from the feminist stand point. Now I get the feeling this question coukd get a little uncivil, that is not my intention but a little bit of tenacity and passion would be nice to see.

The reason I see this question getting messy is simple, at some point stereotypes and generalisations are almost certainly going to come into this. In some ways I welcome that because it means we are having an honest discussion. Some stereotyping about men and women is going to be impossible to avoid as we are guessing and generalising the history of the past 2000 years. So yes men are more violent and yes women are more emotional, these in general terms, are facts. I think to even remotely answer the question generalisations, are necessary. So no offence intended when I generalise both men and women.

Obviously over the past 2 millennia men have ruled the roost, so we could attribute every good thing or every bad thing that has happened to men. The question I'm trying to ask is would we have had more atrocities if women had a more dominant role in decision making? Would we be as technologically and scientifically advanced? Would we be a more empathetic and understanding society and civilisation?

As a man I like to and would like to think men did the best they could in certain areas such as war (over 2000 years wars will happen no matter who is in charge), the advancement of science and maths, architecture, art etc. There are things men are good at (in general, I'm only saying in general once as almost everything about this is generalised), organisation, logic, maths and massive over-generalisations! Anyway these things have given us great advancements but it has also caused a lot of suffering in the process.

The logical, organisational, scientific mind is what caused atrocities such as the holocaust. The organisation and systematic nature of the concentration camps came from such thinking. It begs the question would women have done similar things if they were in charge, or at least had equal influence. The simple statement I have on it is, the extermination of certain peoples may have still happened I'm just not so sure it would have been done in such a cold blooded and efficient manner. I firmly believe that only a male would conceive of concentration camps. So on the death, destruction and famine part I'm gonna side on women doing a 'better' job than men.

To the question of technological and scientific advancements, I claim indifference to an opinion on whether we would be more advanced or not. It is a very difficult question to have a solid opinion on to be honest. It's very difficult to know as women to a certain extent (Madame Curie being the obvious exception but there are others), have been for lack of a better word, excluded from the sciences especially in the first 50 years of the 20th century when a lot of important science we use today was being discovered. Some feminists, well usually misandrists to be fair, don't like to admit that we live in a world that was created by men and that includes the good things such as the massive and rapid advancements in technology, health and science. That I do believe is helped by the way the male brain works.

When it comes to things like art, poetry, architecture, religion, psychology (especially psychology), sociology and many more of the humanities could have done with the influence of women. We would have a massive wealth of extra art, literature, architecture, poetry, music and more just by women having a stronger input over the past 2000 years. When it comes to more recent times I think womens input into psychology would have been massive, I don't think we would have gone down such extreme routes to control people like we did with the holocaust if women had their input on things like behavioural psychology.

I think war would have been (as much as possible) more humane and over much quicker. Do I think women can wage war just like any other human? Of course I do, I also believe there would have been wars, I don't believe that war would disappear if men did. I just believe women wouldn't want the carnage, the salt the ground or scorched earth policies men have adopted in the past.

Anyway I'm sort of rambling so I'll conclude. I am basically trying to engage in a discussion about women over the past 2000 years but also the past couple of hundred of years. Yes I'm sure there is absolutely loads I could add to this but I would like to hear your views on the question at hand. Feel free to generalise as much as is necessary just don't try to do it to be a dick, do it because you have a point.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

OP posts:
FissionChips · 31/03/2019 21:53

The question is would the world have been and be better off

What do you think?

Trebe · 31/03/2019 21:53

The point on hierarchical thinking I think is irrelevant unless you got rid of capitalism.

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 21:57

I meant where would we be in todays society I think more than should women be oppressed mrspratchett, thought that was obvious.

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 21:58

Fissionchips having been raised by women I definitely think yes in a lot of ways and probably no in some others.

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FissionChips · 31/03/2019 21:59

Tell us more and your reasoning why..

Potplant2 · 31/03/2019 21:59

You’re so utterly blinded by your complacent patriarchal assumptions that you can’t even see the problem with defining “women” separately from “the world”. It’s basic othering. Men are the real world, the only true human beings, the default. Women are other, not fully human, and anything that affects them is a special interest and not important to the real humans, who are of course men.

You could start with Simone de Beauvoir on this stuff.

Why do you assume you have something to say to feminists that we haven’t heard a million times before from mediocre, pompous men whose socialisation makes them assume they have the right to lecture us? Why do you assume you know more than us about “the world”?

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 31/03/2019 21:59

You were so close to getting it. Hierarchical thinking is the problem, it is how men retain control with a system of patriarchy that also drives capitalism.
Men are afraid to get rid of capitalism as they cannot envisage any paradigm or system other than hierarchy and control.

Capitalism resents control (''red tape'') and has to be forced to comply with basic standards of decency and human rights, eg;
Health and Safety
Workers Rights
Environmental

Many companies work hard to get around the controls placed on them, and skate right up to the limits of what is allowed, and complain that the restraints interfere with profits.

And that is how we have ended up with situations such as The Great Pacific Garbage Patch - a giant lump of plastic in the ocean that is 3x size of France.
With every speck of available water on the planet contaminated with man made nuclear waste.

People are smart, but groups of people can be exceptionally stupid, self serving and dangerous.

WinterBluez · 31/03/2019 22:00

So you can understand how men are discouraged from certain roles but not women... I'm not saying anybody is necessarily actively discouraged from certain roles but the way boys and girls are taught to behave from a young age paves their ways in life to a certain extent. I'm very good at maths (Not wishing to blow my own trumpet) so some ignorant people would say I have some kind of "male brain" but that's bollocks as the links already posted in this thread show. But you should maybe look in to how gendered socialisation affects people, because I completely understand why people are brushing you off on here. I'm very new to all of this so am more willing to engage than people who have been through these kinds of discussions too many times with people who haven't really done their research yet think they can tell others what's what and more than likely aren't going to change their thinking. Right now I'm still willing to try but I'll probably get to the point where I just tell people to fuck off as well!

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 31/03/2019 22:00

Actually, scrub my post and just go with what Potplant2 said.

Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:04

Badpenny you were making so much sense, but potplant is way off. It's almost idiotic some of the assumptions she has made about me. Everything else we agree on.

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:06

Winterbluez I can understand why women are discouraged from certain things, definitely. But a lot goes into the STEM subjects being much more accessible if not encouraged for women in todays world.

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BadPennyNoBiscuit · 31/03/2019 22:09

You cant both listen and be so dismissive about hierarchies. Women are on the receiving end of male behaviour and its constant, tedious and exhausting dealing with it.

Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:18

Bad penny for the most part we agree, especially when it comes to non-western countries. Some of what male dominated religion has done to women truly disgusts me. However are you under the assumption that women are not annoyed, belittled, negated and such because they are a man in western countries? Maybe we deserve retroactive punishment, to be honest I don't know I do know it harms a good cause though. More than once I've been on the end of misandry when it wasn't necessary, mansplaining and such terms are just as bad as if I said womoaning. It's not acceptable really and does nothing but hurt causes when people hate others based on arbitrary categories. Not always hierarchical either.

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:19

Should say men are belittled etc

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:19

Also what am I dismissing about hierarchies?

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MenuPlant · 31/03/2019 22:21

Retroactive punishment?

I think you have some baggage that you have brought to this thread that is coloring your ability to engage with the points being raised in even a relatively dispassionate manner.

Did you search all the other threads on this topic yet?

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 31/03/2019 22:22

You are not getting retroactive punishment. You are not being belittled. The problem we both have is the dominance hierarchy that you just cant think your way out of or let go of.

Feeling belittled is not worse than not having a domestic violence shelter to go to when you need one, because they are all mixed sex now and underfunded. 90 women and 90 children get turned away every single day - and we are fucking taxed to pay for them. You aren't.

Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:26

Yes but you are blaming me. What did I do?

Also I'm telling you as a fact I have been belittled as a man and for being a man because of the terrible stuff some men do. Mansplaining is a perfect example. Why is that acceptable to say?

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:27

Also bad penny thank you for having an actual discussion with me.

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Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:42

Menuplant show me a single articulate message with a point that I wasn't open and honest in reply. Also dispassionate with dispassionate replies.

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MrsTerryPratchett · 31/03/2019 22:46

Some of what male dominated religion has done to women truly disgusts me

You've got it the wrong way around. Religion is just another tool of the patriarchy. Men did it, they just used religion as one of the many justifications.

Another point is the assumption that discoveries would t have been made but for men. Actually DNA, WiFi, NASA all massive contributions from women, largely unacknowledged. Surely more equality would mean less war and rape and double the discoveries. There is an element of necessity in war but I'd give up ten years of jet engines for two thousand years of no coercive sex.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 31/03/2019 22:49

You stated that misandry bothers you. That leads me to believe that you're not posting in good faith.

FissionChips · 31/03/2019 22:54

Mansplaining is a perfect example. Why is that acceptable to say

Why is it acceptable to come onto a feminist forum on a female dominated site and spout offensive nonsense about women not being as good at STEM etc? Especially as it’s damn clear that you’ve done virtually zero reading around the subject.

Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:54

I don't have it wrong, we just agree on what religion has done to women and the manufactured disgust around the vagina and its workings.

I also agree on your other two points about war. I'd give up every piece of technology I've ever touched to take back 2000 years of oppression and repression of 50% of people who ever lived. The question of if we'd have more discoveries is interesting. Without war we probably wouldn't have computers where a lot of additional discoveries have been made. If we got to 1939 and women were actually given full precedence and presence in science its pretty sure we'd have twice the advancements and discoveries.

OP posts:
Trebe · 31/03/2019 22:56

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