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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would the world have been better off if women had a more dominant role over the past 2000 years?

367 replies

Trebe · 31/03/2019 18:32

Hi, this is my first time posting on here but this question has sparked my curiosity. Would like to find out the views from the feminist stand point. Now I get the feeling this question coukd get a little uncivil, that is not my intention but a little bit of tenacity and passion would be nice to see.

The reason I see this question getting messy is simple, at some point stereotypes and generalisations are almost certainly going to come into this. In some ways I welcome that because it means we are having an honest discussion. Some stereotyping about men and women is going to be impossible to avoid as we are guessing and generalising the history of the past 2000 years. So yes men are more violent and yes women are more emotional, these in general terms, are facts. I think to even remotely answer the question generalisations, are necessary. So no offence intended when I generalise both men and women.

Obviously over the past 2 millennia men have ruled the roost, so we could attribute every good thing or every bad thing that has happened to men. The question I'm trying to ask is would we have had more atrocities if women had a more dominant role in decision making? Would we be as technologically and scientifically advanced? Would we be a more empathetic and understanding society and civilisation?

As a man I like to and would like to think men did the best they could in certain areas such as war (over 2000 years wars will happen no matter who is in charge), the advancement of science and maths, architecture, art etc. There are things men are good at (in general, I'm only saying in general once as almost everything about this is generalised), organisation, logic, maths and massive over-generalisations! Anyway these things have given us great advancements but it has also caused a lot of suffering in the process.

The logical, organisational, scientific mind is what caused atrocities such as the holocaust. The organisation and systematic nature of the concentration camps came from such thinking. It begs the question would women have done similar things if they were in charge, or at least had equal influence. The simple statement I have on it is, the extermination of certain peoples may have still happened I'm just not so sure it would have been done in such a cold blooded and efficient manner. I firmly believe that only a male would conceive of concentration camps. So on the death, destruction and famine part I'm gonna side on women doing a 'better' job than men.

To the question of technological and scientific advancements, I claim indifference to an opinion on whether we would be more advanced or not. It is a very difficult question to have a solid opinion on to be honest. It's very difficult to know as women to a certain extent (Madame Curie being the obvious exception but there are others), have been for lack of a better word, excluded from the sciences especially in the first 50 years of the 20th century when a lot of important science we use today was being discovered. Some feminists, well usually misandrists to be fair, don't like to admit that we live in a world that was created by men and that includes the good things such as the massive and rapid advancements in technology, health and science. That I do believe is helped by the way the male brain works.

When it comes to things like art, poetry, architecture, religion, psychology (especially psychology), sociology and many more of the humanities could have done with the influence of women. We would have a massive wealth of extra art, literature, architecture, poetry, music and more just by women having a stronger input over the past 2000 years. When it comes to more recent times I think womens input into psychology would have been massive, I don't think we would have gone down such extreme routes to control people like we did with the holocaust if women had their input on things like behavioural psychology.

I think war would have been (as much as possible) more humane and over much quicker. Do I think women can wage war just like any other human? Of course I do, I also believe there would have been wars, I don't believe that war would disappear if men did. I just believe women wouldn't want the carnage, the salt the ground or scorched earth policies men have adopted in the past.

Anyway I'm sort of rambling so I'll conclude. I am basically trying to engage in a discussion about women over the past 2000 years but also the past couple of hundred of years. Yes I'm sure there is absolutely loads I could add to this but I would like to hear your views on the question at hand. Feel free to generalise as much as is necessary just don't try to do it to be a dick, do it because you have a point.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

OP posts:
Dervel · 28/04/2019 00:25

Also quick history lesson in case you were unaware: The IQ test was developed by the US military to sort between men who may be useful for the officer track, and to disqualify men who would do more harm than good in a military regiment. I would be highly surprised if the whole thing isn’t designed from the ground up to identify exceptional males as that’s kinda what it was designed for....

Trebe · 28/04/2019 00:28

And know it doesn't verbally explain why but it does statistically and seeming women have every opportunity men have, in fact they are pushed and encouraged into the stem subjects, so I don't know what your talking about.

OP posts:
Dervel · 28/04/2019 00:31

Lol Oh my! I would have thought someone with a maths and statistics background would have something more robust than a blatant ad hominem to offer in rebuttal.

Also for the avoidance of doubt do you what an ad hominem isn't? It’s not an argument!

ps not trying to “win” anything nor engage in intellectual willy waving either. There is a potentially interesting conversation to be had which I would for preference have enjoyed contributing to, but it seems it’s been strangled at birth by a primitive male dominance display!

Dervel · 28/04/2019 00:33

Ok data shows a thing, many things could cause that thing. Merely stating one of those potential causes adjacent to said data does not prove that’s why. Please work with me here I promise it really not that complicated!

Trebe · 28/04/2019 00:35

Since the military iq test, which was 83 to pass, I think. The iq test changes every year it goes up by 3 per cent very generation. Yes it was designed to find the exceptional and the less than able. Its basically logic and puzzle design. If it were true and designed to benefit men, then it certainly wouldn't have helped world war two. The same sort of test were designed originally for men but when they realised some women were truly exceptional, they didn't change the test they wanted the outliers, the exceptional.

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 28/04/2019 00:37

Fuck me that's anti-semitic. I'm pretty sure the holocaust happened because an extremely unpleasant group of men decided that they were superior to Jews and quite a lot of other groups of people.

I think that what your saying can be true at the same time as someone can make a true comment about the particular form that the Holocaust took. Racial hatred can show itself in all kinds of different scenarios, and it manifested in that case in a very distinctive way. It's not anti-semitic to make suggestions about why.

Dervel · 28/04/2019 00:39

Yes designed to find exceptional men! It doesn’t account for the differing ways we raise girls relative to boys!!! Thus it fails to establish an innate difference.

GirlDownUnder · 28/04/2019 00:42

Dervel
"Lol Oh my! I would have thought someone with a maths and statistics background would have something more robust than a blatant ad hominem to offer in rebuttal."

Trebe
"half the time I know what I'm talking about."

Grin

From a very chilled out GDU - thanks for caring x

Trebe · 28/04/2019 00:51

I'm trying to and I'm enjoying this discussion but when you keep belittling me as person with arguements you won't back up, its difficult to be pleasant. I'm pleasant whomever is pleasant with me.

On the iq thing, I've seen it in action. 20 of us took an iq test for a laugh, 6 girls 14 boys. 1 girl obliterated us, the best a boy got was 143 she got 159. I'm not saying women cant be mathematicians, brilliant ones at that in my experience.

Also I find people either get confused with maths or misinterpret it because of the way it is displayed.

Dervel your right when you most statistical models but the normalitive distribution curve is harder to falsify unless you put incorrect or misleading data in then its hard to falsify the results.

OP posts:
Trebe · 28/04/2019 00:53

Attack the arguement not me. State where I'm wrong and I'll do my best to defend myself.

OP posts:
Trebe · 28/04/2019 00:55

Also did I miss something I'm supposed to have said about the holocaust?

OP posts:
OccasionalKite · 28/04/2019 00:56

Dunno if it's just me, but this seems to be descending into OP's particular brand(s) of supremacism.

Trebe · 28/04/2019 01:03

I could see why could see that but it's more to do with the the visceral misandrist reaction I got from a question that was honest and looking for the true. The boards reaction stunned me being a leftist. Free speech comes before else and it wasn't misogynist, sexist or hateful. It was an idea you disagree with. Grow up.

OP posts:
OccasionalKite · 28/04/2019 01:11

I'm thinking, now, of people who have been the actual mums of toddlers!

("There, there, darling! But if you do insist on lying face-down in the carpet, turning blue, then good luck to you!
"I need to clean the bog, at the moment! Let me know when you're ready for your mashed banana and milk!")

Trebe · 28/04/2019 01:21

Thats the biggest misrepresentation of my mother, sister, grandma and aunt. These are some of the strongest matriarchs I have ever known. It says a lot about you and your stereotypes to make that comment. If it wasn't for the women in my family, guiding me, disciplining me, educating me, showing me how to be a good man, I'd be screwed. So that might be your view and their roles but it certainly isn't mine.

OP posts:
Trebe · 28/04/2019 01:24

I'd demand an apology but I don't think you have the guts to admit what you said was wrong.

OP posts:
GirlDownUnder · 28/04/2019 01:31

Men, demanding of women, plus ça change 🤷‍♀️

Trebe · 28/04/2019 01:36

I'm not like that but I could say women moaning about men. Your disgusting misandry will be the down fall of feminism and I think actual feminism is good for everyone.

OP posts:
Trebe · 28/04/2019 01:38

And yes when it comes to a deserved apology I couldn't care less if you have a vagina. Or do you want to be treated specially?

OP posts:
Trebe · 28/04/2019 01:40

You dont have a vagina pass.

OP posts:
OccasionalKite · 28/04/2019 01:41

Yup, toddler tantrum!

OccasionalKite · 28/04/2019 01:45

The Vagina Pass - isn't that a mountain gorge in Snowdonia, or somewhere? Gets snowed up every winter?

Dervel · 28/04/2019 01:48

I made my argument, but I understand your pretence of non understanding is primarily designed to frustrate and draw me in to engage. All the while maintaining a wide-eyed fiction that your are just here in good faith.

You are simply here to wind up feminists and their allies for your own amusement. I am not angry at you in fact quite the reverse I am actually genuinely very sorry for you. I dread to think what environment you grew up in that left you with this as a fun way to spend a Saturday night.

I hope things pick up for you and you find a fuller and more meaningful life filled with genuine human interactions replete with empathy, sympathy and compassion. Peace out! ✌️

GirlDownUnder · 28/04/2019 01:55

Dervel I was enjoying your posts and learning, thanks from me.

I too am neither angry, or wound up, or - checks back on thread - wanting a vagina pass.

Brew
Dervel · 28/04/2019 01:58

That’s the heartwarming thing about threads like these, I usually spot some new names of people that I will very much look forward to seeing in future threads! :)