Lingerie and pretty things

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I don't like these things. I think they're silly and uncomfortable and frequently not practical. However, since around the age of 19/20 I will wear them. Particularly if it means I will ger laid.

So I am wearing these things because men like the look of them. I started dressing more traditionally feminine around that age because looking like a scruffy teenage boy wasn't getting me any.

I like men dressed in typically masculine clothing but I actually think I look nice dressed that way as well. And I am drawn to it more because I feel I can wear it less now.

Women didn't invent stupid women's clothing. We were told to wear it by men who invented stupid womens clothing.

If we are going to decide onw sex is naturally more fluffy and into lacy pink shite... why do we assume it's women and not the men women are trying to look nice for.

*disclaimer not everything a woman wears is to attract a man. BUT attracting a mate is a thing most human will try and do..

I do really wish men could wear anything like women can, and I think that day will come.

I think it has but only with the caveat that you call yourself "trans" or non binary.

For some people at the moment that's true, but I think the current trans trend will have a limited lifespan and at the same time hopefully wake more people up to the fact that clothes do not equal either sex or gender, and that if women can choose from any style, men should be able to as well. There are some men now - Jonathan van Ness, and Billy Porter with his amazing dress at the Oscars this year for example, who just wear dresses as a form of male dress. I love it when they do, it's long overdue.

I recently bought a nightie as I normally sleep naked ... to my great surprise DH saw it as a sexual overture.

He's used to a naked wife in bed with him and it's clothing that gets him going? Truly there's something strange about the male brain.

I do like seeing men performing masculinity - I love Vikings, pirates, Lord of the Rings, all the swashbuckling long haired leather be-trousered sword wielding stuff (ooooohhhh ... ) and tbh I rather like that look on me too!

I hate to sat this op and I normally don't. .. but not all men.

It might be the kind I attract, i've known the really highly sexed ones who are really into women like:

1. No underwear. Followed by:

1. Plain underwear with no lace or frills so that the natural shape or body can be seen.

In fact they've actively detested frills and lace because it is gilding the lily and suggests women's bodies aren't beautiful enough as they are (ie misogynistic on some level).

... but high heels, stockings and suspenders, revealing stuff? It's been a long time and I don't miss it. Nice soft opaque black tights in winter, ballet flats, flowing linen - much more me.

The lingerie thing

I was on a thread recently where someone claimed that women are "objectively" nice to look at (their bodies) than men.

This is an idea born of the fact that women are the ones deemed decorative (+sex objects) in society, it's constructed and is around het male gaze.

Women and girls should get done up in frills because they are for looking at. Boys and men should not because they are the doers, the lookers. This is gender role.

All bets are off when gay men are involved where the sex object is male and so men are presented in ways they would never be in straight stuff.

It's about male gaze then.

I personally think that "sexy" womens clothing / the "look" > is submissive and that's why men like it. If women are prepared to spend hours + money + clothes that are less comfortable then that makes the man feel dominant.

Lots of men do seem to have a need to feel dominant when it comes to sex with women > most mainstream porn expresses this clearly.

I would go as far as saying that "sexy woman" clothes are a bit fetishistic anyway > but they're everywhere so we don't even notice.

Expecting disagreement on that :)

Suits on men are very sexy... and leather gloves!
I guess it's clothing so associated with 'men' that it becomes sort of fetishised?
Perhaps that's why men get turned on by traditionally feminine clothing? And womens shoes...
Because I guess it's trying to emphasise sex characteristic differences...
Small feet, curves etc etc and the items being very different from what they themselves might wear makes it exciting... ?

But high fashion for women is hardly sexy?? You couldn't look at the catwalks and think anyone was doing all that to please men. It's more complicated than that...
Yes it does come from women knowing they are being looked at as visual objects the whole time and society being structured around that for many years.. but what women then express through their clothing is not sexy and/or submissive.... even though the fact that women do express themselves through their image is about the Mmale gaze

I think that men from when they are young have so many images of "sexy lady" in front of them that they sort of come to associate the clothing itself with sex.

That thing on Big Brother when a drag queen got done up in "sexy lady" clothes and the het men were visibly uncomfortable because the trappings of femininity - of "sexy lady" were all present and correct but they knew it was a man.

I think a lot of men really do read things into women's clothing as well. Maybe this is why women's clothing is subject to a lot more judgement / rules etc than mens? Thinking the double sided coin of women / girls being encouraged to show lots of skin vs cover up to various levels.

On the catwalk the clothes are often extreme, uncomfortable looking, and the models NEVER smile.

If you want a "sexy" photo of a woman then usually she's not to smile.

Why is misery on a woman "sexy"???

But high fashion for women is hardly sexy?? You couldn't look at the catwalks and think anyone was doing all that to please men. It's more complicated than that...
I agree. And while we've had a phase of body con, quite sexualised clothing, I think we're now moving away from that. I also question whether the fashion industry is overwhelmingly dominated by men. The most famous designers - or at least the names fronting the big fashion brands - may still be mostly male, as I would imagine their financial backers are too. But I would argue that the people who make the key decisions every season are the retail buyers and the fashion editors / writers. They're the ones who choose what's in the shops and what gets promoted, and I would take a punt that they're mostly women. The main exception I can think of is Edward Enninful, the Vogue editor but his appointment was considered highly unusual. (He's also gone on to give Paris Lees a column but that's for another thread.)

I think it's fascinating, and far more complicated than just men running the whole show.

Standard high-street fashion for women;

www.marksandspencer.com/l/women/all-new-in

Phwoar!!

I think the not smiling is more about trying to look cool than looking miserable. The size, weight and age of models are a far bigger concern for me.

But «i like how it looks» is such an ill defined concept. Why do you like particular colours / styles / designs? What about those particular pants triggers your «looks nice / feels good» feeling?

I read Sapiens recently and have dipped into some neuroscience and behaviour writing since. One thing I have learned is that «just» liking something is not that simple, and free choice is something of a myth. When we «like» something, there’s a trigger, and a reward happening there somewhere, releasing whatever chemicals give us a little boost and that «feels good / looks nice» feeling. And we are social animals: we constantly watch, notice, and respond to the cues and reactions of people around us.

At some point in all our pasts, we’ve learned or been taught what «looks nice / feels good» (often something that wins us approval) and we internalise that, to the point that it feels like it has arisen from «inside us». Thus the myth of free choice.

I suspect that’s how internalised misogyny arises as well.

On the catwalk the clothes are often extreme, uncomfortable looking, and the models NEVER smile.

Catwalk models are interesting as so much of the fashion industry is male dominated and often dominated by gay men too. I think gay men can be quite misogynist and seeing women as basically clothes hangers fits in to that.

But «i like how it looks» is such an ill defined concept. Why do you like particular colours / styles / designs? What about those particular pants triggers your «looks nice / feels good» feeling?

I see posters who say their child just is "girly". But the child has only ever been given girls clothes and toys. Then we praise girls on their clothes far more than boys. It will lead to them liking the praise and then liking the clothes.

My point really was, men are the ones that like the frilly stuff.

Some men... maybe most. But maybe some women do too. I do, I wear lingerie for myself rather than DP, I did before he was on the scene too. I wear clothes that I like. He's quite into my style, so that helps, I guess!

I think generally the answer to this is always going to be to wear what you're comfortable in and find a partner who is happy with that; but it is easier said than done!

I would go as far as saying that "sexy woman" clothes are a bit fetishistic anyway > but they're everywhere so we don't even notice. Expecting disagreement on that

I don't think anyone here would argue with you about that.

I have a memory of a piece that was written about Barbara Cartland when she died, quoting from an interview with her when she was in her prime, being an incredibly prolific author of incredibly bad novels.

The interviewer asked her why she specialized in women in torn nightgowns dashing across windy moors, and so forth, and would she ever depict a male character that way? And she answered, "Oh no, that would never do. A man is at his most attractive when he's fully dressed, and preferably in uniform". That point stuck with me (and goes far beyond Barbara Cartland).

god. That M&S new season collection

Some men... maybe most. But maybe some women do too

#namalt of course! We're all individuals and some like PP may well just really enjoy those sorts of clothes. And some like me maybe a bit pragmatic about what it gets me...

But it's interesting that if we are going to gender clothes with a sex that we've decided that women must like these sorts of clothes and men must like the other sorts. Rather than men love frilly things hence women dress that way to attract them. Like do straight women really just naturally prefer to be hairless or do men prefer women to be hairless?

It's a bit like leaving a bit of birdseed in your garden to attract wildlife. You don't actually like sunflower seeds you like the birds and squirrels :)

A man is at his most attractive when he's fully dressed, and preferably in uniform"

I'm just going to leave this here

Well that is the obvious uniform of all archaeologists and I was not at all disappointed when I found out they didn't all look like Indiana Jones.

Weirdly enough I think Rowan Atkinson looks sexy in this garb - I think men can look alluring with jewellery and frills in the right places.

I can kind of see it.