Use of the term 'handmaidens'?

[JoanWilliams75]

I really hate it. I especially hate it when GC men use it.

Anyone else?

I don't really use handmaiden, nor do I use peaktrans, because especially the second one, distorts the issue. As I've said to the point of tedium on this board, the only reason trans anything is relevant to feminism is when it intersects with women's rights and protections.

Now, sadly, that appears to be much more than you might imagine, but I don't like 'peaktrans' as a word because it puts all the focus on trans, and that's just not the point.

With handmaiden, as I've said, the correct understanding of the term is important because it's not just about disagreements, it's about being actively more pro man than pro woman, but as so few people seem to grasp that distinction, I think its on balance ,unhelpful.

However, I'm quite happy with people using whichever terms they choose, and defending their own usage if challenged, cos we'm all big growed up lasses here.

I knew what 'quisling' meant, and that the term derived from an infamous collaborator, but I didn't actually know till I looked it up last night exactly who Quisling was. I first came across the word as a teenager reading an Alistair McLean book set somewhere in the Balkans and I think had assumed he was from thereabouts.

Using unfamiliar terms is, imo, fine nowadays because we can so easily look them up, rather having to deduce their meaning from context. (OT but re-reading American classics to DD caused me to clear up a few of my misapprehensions and mysteries like what the heck was sassafras)

Yes- often on here people object to being called “handmaidens” because they claim that it’s used to describe anyone who disagrees. It’s not. It means active collaborator. And the “any choice is a feminist choice if a woman makes it” gang hate it (which is a good thing, in my book!) But I think the meaning has been too muddied now, which is a shame. I do like quisling though.

I am sitting on a train and there is an elderly lady sitting in front of me. She has snow white hair and is 80 if she is a day.

Why not use ‘Plain English’ terms that she would easily and quickly be able to understand? She is going to be affected by this far sooner than some of us, in terms of nursing care or mixed-sex wards.

Yes, I am making assumptions, but I don’t think they are unreasonable ones.

MaybeDoctor, I don't disagree about staying away from the over use of jargon, certainly. The woman on the bus shouldnt have to become cognisant of a huge array of new language to be able to understand the impact of all this on her and her family and friends.

In fact this is where there should be clear blue water between us and trans cultists, because they deliberately craft jargon terms to back up their cult mechanisms - we should steer very clear from that kind of language use.

However, when you are having discussions on a message board, with people who do already understand the concepts, and where the rules of the board are restrictive to the point of grimly comical about what can be plainly stated, then shorthand terms have their place.

I don’t know that elderly ladies need to know about Quislings, peak trans, handmaidens etc, though. If you want to make it simple, just say something like, would you like a man who says he is a woman to give you personal care? Anyone would understand that.

maybe I get what you're saying, and why, but do be careful about ageism. I first encountered feminism in a formal way as a teen through reading my mother's book collection - Greer, Dr Beauvoir, French. If she were still alive, my mother would be 90! The 80 year old in front of you is probably more likely to be sympathetic to (and knowledgeable about) second wave feminism than the twenty something student up the other end of the carriage.

If you want to make it simple, just say something like, would you like a man who says he is a woman to give you personal care? Anyone would understand that.

Yes, they would, and this is certainly the language I use when I discuss this face to face with people. But there are significant restrictions on that kind of plain speaking on Twitter, Facebook and here.

Which is obviously barking, but that's why acronyms and oblique terms tend to find favour.

FermatsTheorem

This!

I don’t know that elderly ladies need to know about Quislings, peak trans, handmaidens etc,
I am so disappointed with FWR sometimes.
Elderly ladies campaigned for abortion rights. They camped at Greenham Common. They built women's refuges. Can we please stop being so fucking patronising.

Another term that I've come across is "Bridesmaid"

I don't use it myself but it captures the essence of the female role in supporting, centering and catering to the needs of the brave and stunning transwoman.

I am so disappointed with FWR sometimes. Elderly ladies campaigned for abortion rights. They camped at Greenham Common. They built women's refuges. Can we please stop being so fucking patronising.

Can I just add, as I didn't address this because I was trying to stay focused on the accessibility of language, that I completely agree we need to steer a wide berth away from using 'little old ladies' as an example a naive ignorance. Other, more hostile posters have shown a liking for that kind of patronizing cobblers, we should turn away from it.

I don’t know that elderly ladies need to know about Quislings, peak trans, handmaidens etc, though

Eh? Why? Are they stupid?

Thank you CaptainMarvel. I totally agree about using plain language wherever possible. I'm a big fan of George Orwell's advice to never use a long word where a short one will do. In the same vein, I really dislike 'elderly'. Just say 'old' for fucks sake. But maybe that's for another thread

Oh no, I’m not trying to be patronising. Or to cause you to swear. I know how strong women are and have been. If you want to misunderstand my context of let’s not use crazy new language at them, that’s up to you.

As for me, I’ve had it up to here with constantly having to try to work out what the hell new words mean or what old words now mean.

Oh no, I’m not trying to be patronising. Or to cause you to swear. I know how strong women are and have been.
I am going to pretend you ended your post right there. And I am going to reply, 'no probs Spokk, and thank you for listening.'

Spokk, don't take it personally. It's not about telling everyone off, part of the positive nature of FWR is pointing out things we do or say unconsciously that contribute to various sexist stuff. Everyone has said things which don't quite convey their good intent. I know I'll take away from this a little thinking time about my unconscious attitude towards older women who I perhaps don't give enough credit to. This is a genuinely good thing to be thinking about.

Greer is 80.

Yes, of course she might have been at Greenham common. We all ‘might’ have done or not done anything, but that’s not the point.

My intent was not ageist. I could have used the example of a woman for whom EAL, or who comes from a closed community, or a religious grouping that doesn’t encourage discussion of LGBT issues. There was, naturally, an equal representation of all these groups on the train with me too!

Using straightforward language makes it as simple as possible for the widest number of women to engage with this issue.

I live in a small, rural, conservative town. This subject is never discussed here. But the messages need to get here too...

If I look at the front page of feminism chat, it is often barely comprehensible to someone who doesn’t already know what is being talked about.

Flame away, but I am not the enemy here.

Using straightforward language makes it as simple as possible for the widest number of women to engage with this issue.
Yes. Couldn't agree more.

Flame away, but I am not the enemy here.
Oh please - this is not about you.

when I first starting hanging around FWR I didn't expect everyone to slow down while I caught up. (I still don't, which is a good thing as I have to resort to google quite often to follow some of the more academic arguments).

I am not 80.

“I don’t know that elderly ladies need to know about Quislings, peak trans, handmaidens etc, though”

It’s not “elderly women” who think feminism means the freedom to be a stripper.......

“If I look at the front page of feminism chat, it is often barely comprehensible to someone who doesn’t already know what is being talked about. ”

Could you give an example, please?

Traitor.

Everyone knows what that word means.