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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Mermaid statement: about Good Morning Britain and Caroline Farrow

262 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/03/2019 21:03

Apparently Farrow will be on GMB tomorrow.

There are some interesting bits in this statement:

Jackie is, of course, deeply upset by the reference to her as being mutilated, castrated and sterilised.

Jackie is also distressed at the assertion that this was something that was somehow done ‘to her’. The only people deliberately doing anything 'to her' are the online trolls using the most abusive language about her. She would like the online abuse to stop.

At 16, she undertook extensive psychological assessment from independent experts before she was cleared for, and undertook, gender reassignment surgery. Her competency and full knowledge of all the implications was clear.

At 25 she still considers that surgery, for her, was lifesaving, and is distressed at the implication that she was not capable and mature enough to make this decision.

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 26/03/2019 09:41

That Jackie Green tweet is disturbing - the focus on bloody Barbies and action men as a measure of whether a child has the right BODY is utterly horrifying!

Well, if you listen to what Susie Green says about Jackie's childhood, this is what she focuses on. It looks as though Jackie just believed what Susie said.

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2019 09:49

Given that action men and barbies are bodies which are not humanlike its particularly bizarre. There are plastic surgery addicts who try and look like them and spend fortunes trying to.

There have been campaigns for years about making more realistic bodies to make people more comfortable with reality, so sticking unachievable bodies in front of the noises of kids who already have hang ups about their own bodies just strikes me as deliberately trying to aggreviate that insecurity rather resolve psychological hang ups.

And given unrealistic representation of bodies in media and social media has been the subject of studies and they have found that this has had a negative impact on mental health you do have to wonder just how sinister this is and how planned to actively cause mental distress that it is. It could actively be used against the population if some we inclined to do so.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2019 10:07

Given that action men and barbies are bodies which are not humanlike its particularly bizarre. There are plastic surgery addicts who try and look like them and spend fortunes trying to.

Recognition of the vulnerabilities of people with body dysmorphia was made explicit in response to Superdrug:

January 2019 Guardian article:
" Superdrug tightens mental health checks on Botox customers
After NHS criticism, enhanced screening will check for signs of body dysmorphic disorder"

(extract)
"Superdrug is tightening its screening for people seeking Botox, to ensure that those with mental health problems are not having injections because they are dissatisfied with their body.

The high-street beauty and pharmacy chain has acted after NHS bosses criticised it for not conducting “medically responsible” checks before customers start treatment.

It has agreed to introduce enhanced screening specifically designed to see if those asking to have Botox or similar anti-ageing procedures have body dysmorphic disorder (BDD).

People with BDD worry obsessively about their appearance and some may seek cosmetic treatments or surgery to correct what they they see as flaws.

Prof Stephen Powis, NHS England’s medical director, welcomed Superdrug’s move. After the firm announced last September that it was making Botox available in its outlets, he had demanded it do everything possible to protect potentially vulnerable customers." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/19/superdrugs-tightens-mental-health-checks-on-botox-customers

rocketromano · 26/03/2019 10:10

I think castration is fair descriptor but misses out the amputation of penis. To be described in surgical terms would be bilateral orchidectomy and amputation of penis. Do you think SG would be happier with those terms? Because that’s what it would have said on the consent form (plus some other stuff, presume they used colon to form neovagina??)

NeurotrashWarrior · 26/03/2019 10:12

The best arguments for allowing children and young adults to take their time and consider other options for dealing with dysphoria are those presented by those who have already been there. These are very key links regarding all of this for me; long.

4thwavenow.com/2018/12/19/the-theatre-of-the-body-a-detransitioned-epidemiologist-examines-suicidality-affirmation-and-transgender-identity/

Erin Brewer is churning out a video almost daily right now. She makes extremely good cases around the different reasons for gender dysphoria but most importantly that it doesn't need to be 'treated' by transitioning. She had gender dysphoria and still suffers at times today.

www.chooseyourowndiagnosis.com/2019/03/defending-my-mental-illness-gender.html

I can't find the link but I remember watching an American trans woman taking about how she'd probably not have chosen that route given the chance again as she was riddled with health issues.

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:13

In the documentary about Jackie's attempt to become a pageant winner (linked previously), she describes how she sees the genital surgery as 'correcting a small birth defect'.

Yes, she likens it to getting a mole removed. Now apart from the utter ridiculousness of comparing having your penis and testicles removed and that area fashioned into something that will need years, possibly a lifetime, of aftercare, plus taking lifelong medication, and being rendered permanently infertile... To getting a mole removed....

I have been thinking about this 'birth defect' anaolgy. Obviously it's true that there are some birth defects which require quite extensive and possibly risky surgery. We do do things to correct bodies which are 'wrong'. For example someone born with a heart defect may need open heart surgery to make their heart work better. Someone born with fibula hemimelia may need their leg amputated so that they can use a prosthesis instead, as this is generally deemed better for quality of life than trying to walk using the actual leg. But these are tangible, physical defects which can be observed and where the improvement with surgery or medication can be measured pretty well.

SRS surgery (or whatever we are going to call it) is actually far more comparable to someone claiming they have a mole on their arm, where no mole can be observed, and then demanding that a doctor remove part of the skin of the arm. Or claiming that they have a deformity on their leg, possibly one which is causing them pain, when all examinations, scans, x rays, show that there is nothing wrong with the leg. And then demanding that the leg is amputated.

Gender dysphoria is an illness of the mind. Most people with gender dysphoria have perfectly healthy and working bodies and sex organs (until the blockers start). The physical body is perfectly healthy, it is the mind that isn't. So why on earth are we cutting off parts of the physical body rather than putting all of the efforts into healing the mind? This just wouldn't happen in any other aspect of psychiatric medicine.

And the even more batshit thing about it is that the same people who are claiming that kids should be given access to this stuff because they will kill themselves if they don't, also turn around and compare being trans to being gay, and then also say 'but don't say that being trans is a mental illness, because being gay isn't a mental illness is it'?

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:14

My head can't cope with how illogical it all is!

Datun · 26/03/2019 10:15

Those tweets are indeed disturbing. I've never seen them before.

The first one simply isn't true. And what's with the mention of God??

And the second one calling it a birth defect? And doubling down on saying how they were forced to play with the wrong toys?

Wondered if these kids have not matured beyond prepuberty is not contradicted one iota by those tweets.

Datun · 26/03/2019 10:16

And yes, of course, to the fact that autism is over represented. And clarity of language being vital.

Fudging is beginning to look more than deliberate.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 26/03/2019 10:18

the focus on bloody Barbies and action men as a measure of whether a child has the right BODY is utterly horrifying! Is this what people actually believe? In 2019? Incredible.

Indeed. Play with the wrong toys and you definitely need to change your body because if that Hmm This is why I kept my kids off, I think it was Mermaids who were coming in for a 'talk' and I knew what it would be so a whole load of nope. DD plays with a mix of 'boys toys' and 'girls toys'. DS is the same but he also likes putting on princess dresses at nursery for some reason. So my daughter would be declared non binary probably, and my son a transgirl..as he tends to favour dolls and stuff to trucks.

Near every story you hear of transition..especially when its kids, is all about wanting long hair, dresses, glitter etc.

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:19

I read an article about Jackie Green the other day and the first picture was of Jackie at about 18 months old.... Holding a doll.

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:20

Or what was it Jazz Jennings did? Undid the poppers on her baby vest to make it into a 'dress'?

I mean, come the fuck on!

Carowiththegoodhair · 26/03/2019 10:22

Beginning to wonder if Aristotelian ethics (which Catholic moral theology is in part based upon) comes into play here.

Body parts have a function. We operate where they are not fulfilling their basic purpose. We don’t mutilate (and Catholic moral theology uses that word) or amputate healthy functioning body parts.

Nightwitch · 26/03/2019 10:23

I think the fact that a very high proportion of gnc children desist if allowed to go through puberty is seen as a problem by some and that the aim of positive affirmation is to ensure they do.
If we're speaking plain now, we neuter cats for instance before puberty, not only to prevent uncontrolled breeding but to prevent undesirable sexual behaviour.
Puberty doesn't just bring physical changes, but the emergence of sexual urges.
Do adolescents desist because that's when they generally start having sexual fantasies and masturbating? If put on puberty blockers, that will never happen. Jazz Jennings has said she doesn't have a sex drive.
positive affirmation is grooming children into puberty blockers to keep them sex less.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2019 10:26

SRS surgery (or whatever we are going to call it) is actually far more comparable to someone claiming they have a mole on their arm, where no mole can be observed, and then demanding that a doctor remove part of the skin of the arm. Or claiming that they have a deformity on their leg, possibly one which is causing them pain, when all examinations, scans, x rays, show that there is nothing wrong with the leg. And then demanding that the leg is amputated.

2000 Guardian: 'Healthy limbs cut off at patients' request
NHS trust puts stop to surgeon's amputations done as last resort on disturbed patients with 'life threatening' hate of their own bodies'

(extract)
"A surgeon who amputated the healthy limbs from two psychologically disturbed men at their request said yesterday that he saw nothing wrong with his actions and that he was disappointed he would not be able to carry out such operations again.

Robert Smith cut off the lower legs of two patients, one from England and one from Germany, during private operations at Falkirk and district royal infirmary. The men had been turned away by surgeons across Europe before Mr Smith agreed to operate.

Mr Smith said, however, that he did not want to specialise in the procedure. "The last thing I want to be is a world centre for cutting off arms and legs."

The two men were suffering from an extremely rare form of body dysmorphic disorder known as apotemnophilia. Those suffering from the disease have an obsessive belief that their body is "incomplete" with four limbs and will only be complete after amputation. In most cases of apotemnophilia the desire to be an amputee is linked to a form of sexual arousal, but Mr Smith said there was no suggestion that any of his patients were motivated by sexual urges.

Following an internal investigation, Forth Valley NHS trust has now effectively banned Mr Smith from carrying out further procedures on people suffering from the disorder. Private hospitals have also refused to allow Mr Smith to carry out the procedure.

Mr Smith said he had six more patients waiting to be considered for amputation, two of whom had been fully assessed by psychiatrists as suitable candidates. The disorder takes over patients' lives and Mr Smith said that one of his patients had already tried to persuade friends to shoot off one of her limbs.

"My fear is that someone will injure or kill themselves," he said. "I have very serious concerns that they will go to an unlicensed practitioner or take the law into their own hands and lie down on a railway line, or take a shotgun.

Mr Smith's patients, whom he said were severely disabled by their disorder, had rigorous psychological and psychiatric evaluations before their operations. His decision to carry out the amputations was legal.

Kenyon Mason, a professor dealing with medical ethics, said the law would view the case in much the same way as it would gender reassignment. "As long as you say that people can have a sex change for what is a severe psychological disease, then it is difficult to say you cannot have an amputation for this form of severe psychological disease," said Professor Mason." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2000/feb/01/futureofthenhs.health

Its worth reading the whole article

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:27

Do adolescents desist because that's when they generally start having sexual fantasies and masturbating?

I'm never going to find it now, but somewhere on here the other day there was a screenshot from a 'trans kids' type forum. A mother was talking about her 'trans' teenager who had discovered mastrubation and was wanting to stop their hormonal medication because it 'intereferred' and the mum was looking for advice as to how to persuade her child that this wouldn't necessarily be a good idea. Like, WTF?!

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:29

Wow, thanks for that R0wantrees, very interesting. It is a real struggle to see the difference tbh.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2019 10:31

We operate where they are not fulfilling their basic purpose. We don’t mutilate (and Catholic moral theology uses that word) or amputate healthy functioning body parts.

That's not strictly true.
'Healthy functioning body parts' are removed eg elective mastectomies following BRCA+

I dont think theology / religious ideology should have any more involvement in medical deision making than transgender ideology.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2019 10:39

very interesting. It is a real struggle to see the difference tbh

BarbieJellyBabyBrain The article re amputation interestingly refers to how Mr Smith then received requests from 'all over the world' and how the 'handful' of surgeons operating in this way were found on the internet.

Is iit reasonable to presume that amongst some 'communities' of apotemnophiliacs, Mr Smith and the surgeons in Russia, Canada and Austria who carry out amputations might be seen as being at forefront of treatment?

Datun · 26/03/2019 10:40

To the poster up thread (sorry I can't find it now), who wondered about the long-term affects of puberty blockers, this thread is incredibly revealing.

The Tavistock knew that puberty blockers actually exacerbated gender dysphoria.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3525450-Tavistock-s-Experimentation-with-Puberty-Blockers-Scrutinizing-the-Evidence?msgid=85389206

Coupled with the new evidence about the increased effects of heart attacks and strokes on those using cross sex hormones, it's difficult to believe they are still being prescribed so casually.

If we're speaking plain now, we neuter cats for instance before puberty, not only to prevent uncontrolled breeding but to prevent undesirable sexual behaviour.

It's unbelievable. That we are doing this to kids now. Almost 100% of children on puberty blockers go onto cross sex hormones.

anomoony · 26/03/2019 10:44

Or Coy Mathis, who at 4 months reached for the pink blanket instead of the blue one.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2019 10:46

from Datun's link above,
OP Pimmsnlemonade Tue 05-Mar-19 wrote:
www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

"To summarize, GIDS launched a study to administer experimental drugs to children suffering from gender dysphoria. Between 2010 and 2014, puberty blockers were given to 50 children. This study yielded only one published scientific article on outcomes. It showed no evidence for the effectiveness of GnRHa: there was no statistically significant difference in psychosocial functioning between the group given blockers and the group given only psychological support. In addition, there is unpublished evidence that after a year on GnRHa children reported greater self-harm, and that girls experienced more behavioural and emotional problems and expressed greater dissatisfaction with their body—so puberty blockers exacerbated gender dysphoria. Yet the study has been used to justify rolling out this drug regime to several hundred children aged under 16. Almost five years after the last patient was enrolled in the experiment, there is no evidence to substantiate Carmichael’s claim ‘that the results thus far have been positive’."

BarbieJellyBabyBrain · 26/03/2019 10:52

Or Coy Mathis, who at 4 months reached for the pink blanket instead of the blue one.

I was agog to see Coy Mathis, and their love for pink and sparkles, featured in that 'Stories for Rebel Girls' book.

Datun · 26/03/2019 10:52

Plus experiments on sheep have shown an irreversible reduction in spatial awareness and cognitive ability. And a drop of 8 IQ points (although I can't see that bit, even though I know it's there?).

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 26/03/2019 10:52

We don’t mutilate (and Catholic moral theology uses that word) or amputate healthy functioning body parts.

That's what circumcision is: the mutilation of a healthy body part for nothing other than religious reasons.

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