Another Mermaid statement: about Good Morning Britain and Caroline Farrow

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Apparently Farrow will be on GMB tomorrow.

There are some interesting bits in this statement:

Jackie is, of course, deeply upset by the reference to her as being mutilated, castrated and sterilised.

Jackie is also distressed at the assertion that this was something that was somehow done ‘to her’. The only people deliberately doing anything 'to her' are the online trolls using the most abusive language about her. She would like the online abuse to stop.

At 16, she undertook extensive psychological assessment from independent experts before she was cleared for, and undertook, gender reassignment surgery. Her competency and full knowledge of all the implications was clear.

At 25 she still considers that surgery, for her, was lifesaving, and is distressed at the implication that she was not capable and mature enough to make this decision.

RedShoeBlueShoe

“I know a few women who wanted to be sterilised after having children. All were told it was not an option until they were over 30”

Yes. Even harder if you are an adult woman who does not want children at all. Once I hit 30 I was able to get sterilized but until then I was constantly told I might change my mind and so has to use various birth control methods that caused me all sorts of side effects and complications. I know from associating with childfree communities some women have an even hard time of it at 30+.

I as an adult woman was not “trusted” to make such a permanent decision about my fertility. And many other adult women aren’t. But children who are not “conforming” to stereotypes to their parents satisfaction or feel awkward in their bodies (which, yes, is normal) are somehow ready to make permanent life changing decisions about their fertility, sexuality, medical dependency, body cosmetics?

I was refused sterilisation at 39, I had 2 dc already and had suffered 2 miscarriages and then an eptopic. I had to be operated on with the eptopic and asked the surgeon to sterilise me as I knew there and then that I never wanted to be pregnant again. He completely refused despite me asking several times.

Thanks for unpicking the pregnancy/surgery comparison. I knew it wasn't a valid one but couldn't articulate why!

Is it still illegal for SRS to be done on children under 18? Someone is asserting it isn't any more, since the "law of mayhem" act was abolished but I can't find any info on this.

Mermaids Charity's statement concludes:

"We condemn all kinds of online abuse, including that aimed at transgender people, including, unfortunately, children, young people and their families. The impact of this on a vulnerable minority that are too often the victim of prejudice and discrimination cannot be discounted.

"Online hate is vile, including the tweets sent about Susie and Jackie, and those sent to Caroline Farrow, the tweeter. We condemn the vile tweets sent to her as much as we condemn the ones she sent about Susie and Jackie.

We welcome respectful and intelligent discussion about many topics involving transgender people, but the use of ‘child abuse’ ‘mutilation’ and ‘castration’ cannot, in any reasonable persons view, be considered to be acceptable.

Can the discussion about trans children please now become less toxic and abusive.

the use of ‘child abuse’ ‘mutilation’ and ‘castration’ cannot, in any reasonable persons view, be considered to be acceptable.

It's interesting that the stat,met suggests that's Mermaids want the discussion to be less toxic. I thought they wanted no discussion, no debate, no questions?

If they want discussion, surely they'd be happy to arrange one with concerned parents? Perhaps a Mumsnet webchat?

Susannah Reid said 'so it wasn't illegal in the place where it was done. So to call it illegal is not true because it happened under the law in that country'

Right now there are loads of 13 and 14 year old girls in the US being given double mastectomies. I don't know if there is any specific law to prevent UK parents taking their children abroad for such surgery but if there is not, I would think (hope!) that a law would be put in place sharpish after the first case or two.

Loads of things are legal in other countries that are not legal here. Nigeria has an age of consent of just 11. How would UK law look on a parent who took their 11 or 12 year old child to Nigeria so they could have sex?

Stupid dangerous argument Susannah.

Susannah Reid said 'so it wasn't illegal in the place where it was done. So to call it illegal is not true because it happened under the law in that country'

Yes, that really pissed me off. Imagine that being the thing you concentrate on. That it was not 'technically' illegal because it was done in a country where it was legal (even though, Thailand changed the law shortly after). Imagine, in a conversation about a 15 year old being taken on a plane to be castrated in another country for their 16th birthday, picking out the fact that because it was legal in that country, calling it 'illegal' is technically incorrect.

I mean, fucking hell.

to be fair, castration is a loaded term. We use the term chemical castration to describe the sentence imporsed on Alan Turing, for instance.

But I think that Caroline intends it to be loaded - for her, the act is not neutral.

Why is it a loaded term? It’s just a statement of fact.

don't be silly of course it's a loaded term.

It's illegal to take your female child abroad for FGM even if FGM is legal in the destination country.
That's not an excuse.

here's a tweet in response to Chris Packham's campaign to nominate Alan Turing as the greatest person of the 20th Century:

"Morning Chris I feel a shamed the way our country treated Alan Turing he was an absolute genius who helped end world war two at least to early. Because he was homosexual he was chemically castrated after the war and ended up poisoning himself with a red apple take care."

Castration is something done to someone without their consent.

Caroline believes the 15 year old in question was not capable of giving consent to the proposed operation, that's why she uses the term.

All language is loaded.

Susannah Reid said 'so it wasn't illegal in the place where it was done. So to call it illegal is not true because it happened under the law in that country'

FGM is legal in the countries where it is carried out too. Taking a child from the UK for that is a crime

Show me a dictionary definition of castration which mentions consent.

I don't think it's loaded, I think it's just not a euphemism. What are the alternatives?

orchidectomy - not many people know what that means
bottom surgery - a twee euphemism that invisiblises what's involved
removal of the testes - 'oh, you mean castration'

We should absolutely be questioning how many children are set on a path to permanent medical and surgical transition who would otherwise just turn out to be gay. A lot of it looks like the same old gay conversion therapy to me, just with added unicorns and glitter and a heap of dishonesty.

for her, the act is not neutral.

When can the removal of a child's gonads, and so their ability to reproduce, ever be a neutral act? Even when absolutely necessary to preserve life it's not neutral. It's a huge thing to do.

Castration is something done to someone without their consent.

Nope.

The definition of castration is:
the removal of the testicles of a male animal or man.

Which is what happened.

No idea what Alan Turing has to do with this?

What would you call it, if not castration?

Alan Turing consented to Castration rather than imprisonment.

Funny how you bring up the ill's of one kind of hormonal treatment while arguing for another....

April 2016 Independent:
'GCHQ apologises for 'horrifying' treatment of Alan Turing and discrimination against other LGBT people'

(extract)
"Robert Hannigan is the director of Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), the successor to the Government Code and Cypher School which first employed and then summarily fired Mr Turing.

LGBT individuals were banned from joining the espionage organisation until the 1990s, because of what Mr Hannigan referred to as "completely archaic rules on sexuality".

Speaking at a conference hosted by gay rights charity Stonewall, he said he had been asked to apologise and added: "I am happy to that today and to say how sorry I am that he and so many others were treated in this way, right up until the 1990s when the policy was rightly changed.

"The fact that it was common practice for decades reflected the intolerance of the times and the pressures of the Cold War, but it does not make it any less wrong and we should apologise for it.

"Their suffering was our loss, and it was the nation's loss too, because we cannot know what [those] who were dismissed would have gone on to do and achieve. We did not learn our lesson from Turing." (continues)

However, in 1952 [Turing] pled guilty to a charge of public indecency, admitting he was in a homosexual relationship with Arnold Murray. Offered the choice between prison and libido-reducing injections, he opted for the latter.

The chemical castration rendered him impotent, and he is believed to have killed himself in 1954 by eating an apple laced with cyanide.

Stonewall chief executive Ruth Hunt said: "It’s vital that we leave no stone unturned to ensure that every single lesbian, gay, bi and trans person feels able to bring their whole self to work and is accepted without exception." (continues)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/gchq-apology-horrifying-treatment-alan-turing-lgbt-people-a6987021.html

What does Alan Turing have to do with this situation? Why all that c&p rowantrees?

If you are going to argue using figures from history, please at at the very least read their Wikipedia page to get an idea of what you are talking about.

BorsetshireBlew

The discussion is currently about LGBT+ rights and Alan Turing.
I have included two carefully selected extracts from an article which has relevence to both points.

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