All kicking off at Primark!

[DointItForTheKids]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6819195/Primark-sparks-changing-room-row.html

As the (currently) one poster comments, 'ridiculous'.

When will this rubbish end. For the sake of a very small % of the country, all our lives have to be negatively affected and our personal space and feeling of security completely disregarded. Thanks a lot. So selfish.

Not only that, but this is being done in the name of a few narcissistic men who say that they feel like women. They are so very obviously empathetic to women's needs, and understand all women's concerns so well don't they. Hypocritical much.

Any mixed sex changing cubicles would need to be full height walls and doors, with decent locks,

Agreed - curtains are no bloody use if you have a big bum. (I'm always sticking mine out my mistake).

Even behind a fully locked door, don't really need, want or feel comfortable with a bloke in earshot for discussions about bra size and fit as an adult human female, nevermind for a self-conscious teen, again even assuming no bad intent on his part

But this is the thing. How do you police it and how far does it go?

What's the legality/morality of saying no you can't come in here to one person and not another and what if that man in M&S had said well, I identify as a woman, what then? How does anyone making that decision justify the logic they applied and on what grounds do you refuse permission - then there are the endless permutations - trans wanting to use women's changing room, trans wanting to use gender neutral changing room, and what if I as a woman feel like I'm identifying as a man today - can I use the men's changing room and be unchallenged, or the gender neutral one if I'm in a bit of an in-between phase - I mean, it is just unpoliceable isn't it. It places quite the unfair burden on the staff to try and maintain the status quo and there will be court cases and discrimination and some poor sod will be hauled before the courts for discrimination or a hate crime in relation to this.

That's the thing isn't it Dark, they KNOW it makes us uncomfortable even when there is no threat intended, but god dammit, they're going to have that access and never mind it upsetting the sex that they actually say they want to be and say they feel like!

Just shows that obviously, having been raised as men and still having penises (in the majority of cases) and putting on a dress doesn't give them the life experience of growing up as a female. Any more than I as a white woman can pretend to identify as a black woman - I don't have those experiences because I'm NOT a black woman! You can't just decide to be something and also imagine that you have instantaneously been able to empathise, take on board and assimilate all those experiences because it can't be done. I would even presume to try outside of trying to be part of the solution by calling out - racism for example - and empathising and talking about it. But I'm not going to present as something that I'm not - it's just insulting to whoever it is you're purporting to pretend you 'get'. Because you don't. I'm not going to do that because I have too much respect for that group and wouldn't think for a second that it was ok to do that - clearly, respect is not at the forefront of the minds of these men, it's go forward crushing any dissenters along the way, and fuck off if you don't like it.

We shall see what transpires at Primark then presuming its a busy store. I wonder if anyone actually ASKED the women shoppers what they wanted?

they KNOW it makes us uncomfortable even when there is no threat intended, but god dammit, they're going to have that access and never mind it upsetting the sex that they actually say they want to be and say they feel like!

And in full knowledge that it will exclude women of faith, culture and religions already struggling to access public spaces, women with some disabilities, women who have suffered DV, sexual assault and trauma, and women who plain want privacy and don't feel comfortable taking their clothes off with males in the room.

And they're good with that. The damage done to women as a whole is fine so long as they get what they want. Intersectionality? Inclusiveness? 'Choosing love'? Don't make me laugh.

Exactly.

I don't often try stuff on in primark anyway. I'm buying socks & pyjama bottoms & tshirts, & I know what will fit.

My dds do, though - they love Primark.

I don't live in the U.K., & our biannual visit is all about the fun of dds being able to grab baskets full of cheap stuff - they live in uniform/sports wear/swimming costumes/pyjamas here, so we avoid the fact that imported clothes are ridiculously pricey with a glorious spree back in the U.K. every 6 months.

I'm now quite tempted to go & make a hooha about trying stuff on in the men's changing room - I buy all my socks from the men's range anyway, so that's totes legit right?

Would this work for my teenage dds? No, it bloody well wouldn't. They'd be mortified, not being middle aged & out of fucks to give about embarrassment.

Really rubbish. I guess we will have to get our Xmas & summer stock up online instead. From other retailers.

People are terrfied of being labelled a bigot.

Not me, though! Perhaps the one positive aspect of being autistic is that emotional blackmail doesn't work on me.

If enough of us - fortunate enough to have decent credit - went in and bought armfuls in various sizes to try on at home then return it all just within the time limit and state clearly at the tills that we’re not comfortable with mixed sex changing maybe that may be an effective protest??

I know that this would be well-intentioned but please don't: it would just create more work for shop staff, who don't have any say over policy.

Brilliant :(

My DD has just been given the freedom to go into Primark with her best friend and shop while I sit in the Costa next door.

They are 10/11 and love that bit of freedom.

Guess I'll have to ban them from the changing rooms now :( or shop elsewhere.

Well done Primark, alienating your hugely popular tween market.

I wonder if anywhere actually still has separate fitting rooms and actually enforce it. I can live with it but with 2 teenage DDs I see the need for it. Excess buying and returning will soon get the message through.

Dr Nic in the Mirror - excellent as usual

and someone who believes this issue can be settled by screaming no debate

yes, you read that right

Olivia Butterworth of the LGBT Foundation does not believe all the child protection issues raised in this thread are even worthy of debate

pbs.twimg.com/media/D12aJhNWwAAUOV5?format=png

Out of interest, what to women do when they have a buggy?

If I can't use the large cubical, I just use a normal one and leave the curtain open and buggy in the doorway. If the changing room is unisex I can't do that.

Out of interest, what to women do when they have a buggy?

Sackcloth and ashes?

I think it would be different if they were floor to ceiling locking doors. A lot of those curtains don't even go all the way across.

I originally thought mens, womens and unisex would work, but I think that means a lot of teen girls will use the unisex cubicles to prove they are supporting it and really, they are the most vulnerable?

Florescentadolescent I can't try clothes on in most shops as they only have one or two cubicles which open p onto the shop floor, and no wheelchair accessible ones. Not that I shop for clothes much, but I got down to my last pair of trousers not long since, so had to take DM shopping with me so she could stand with DC outside the shops as I can't even get around a lot of them with a pram, much less into a changing room. I don't know how the wheelchair bound manage in our town. It's not accommodating of them at all.

When I was a teenager, boys would have pulled the curtains open on the girls "for a laugh" if they'd had the chance. Girls would have done it to boys too.

Out of interest, what to women do when they have a buggy?

Stay home were we belong apparently. Oh, look at us go, chatting about prams on mumsnet! Real ladies today!

Also, I don't want my daughter pushed in, and locked into, a stall with a opportunist predator thanksverymuch. Or being perved at through the hidden camera the previous bloke planted.

think that means a lot of teen girls will use the unisex cubicles to prove they are supporting it

My bet is most real-life teenage girls would avoid the unisex like the plague, unless they were in a largish group who'd look out for each other.

Single sex plus unisex seems like the least worst option by far, in places large enough to accommodate them.

Sackcloth and ashes?

Toddlers pulling open curtain, teens "prank" opening curtains, voyers sneeking peeks, buggys, mothers helping children so can't shut door, doors with broken locks.
These are all factors that should be taken into account and mean unisex changing rooms don't work - lockable cubical or not.

The only way it would work is if all cubicals were as big as the wheelchair accessible ones, and that is unlikely to happen.

GMB will be covering this story this morning. They referenced it at the top of the show. Not sure who will be on etc.

I can't do a clicky link, but Celia Walden in today's Telegraph has written a piece about this and is not happy.