Eleanor Scott article, 'Did Mumsnet Just Hand Penny Mordaunt Her Arse?'

[R0wantrees]

'Did Mumsnet Just Hand Penny Mordaunt Her Arse?'
(extract)

“Don’t you worry about getting back to us, Penny dearest. Mumsnet only has ‘14 million unique users’ a month ... Just you sit tight and eventually get one of your minions to post some anodyne rhetoric about valuing diversity and it’ll all be fine.”
— Mumsnet poster, webchat with Penny Mordaunt 14/3/19 13.55pm

It takes a certain set of tools to turn a golden opportunity to engage with hundreds of thousands of women on International Women’s Day into an unmitigated PR disaster, and Penny Mordaunt MP has somehow managed to pull it off. I’ve met Penny Mordaunt a few times in Portsmouth over the years while I was on Council-related business, and she has always seemed perfectly likeable and pleasant. But future Prime Minister material? Not unless courting disaster is now seen as prerequisite rather than unfortunate happenstance." (continues)

concludes:
"The Mumsnetters who had asked their questions in such detail, and with such courtesy - posters have to abide by Mumsnet’s fairly stringent ‘Talk Guidlines’ - were left disappointed and, frankly, pissed off, especially regarding the unanswered points about children’s safeguarding. But they weren’t leaving the webchat meekly. ‘Disappointed but not surprised’ wrote one poster. ‘Completely disingenuous’ wrote another. Of her apparent ignorance around the issues raised concerning children’s safeguarding, a poster wrote, more in sadness than anger, ‘This is unforgiveable. You were given all the information. All of it. Spoonfed it. You haven’t bloody well read it.’ And one of the most damning comments so far: ‘Either Penny, or Penny’s SPADs are not up to par on the reports coming out of the Tavistock’. (Click here if you want to read the Mail’s report about the potentially brewing scandal, or here for a BBC snippet. It’s worth digging deeper if you’re interested.)

And finally, can the Minister for Women even define what is a woman? On this showing, the answer would seem to be No. The actual Minister for Woman apparently doesn’t ‘get it’, doesn’t want to ‘get it’, and seemingly can’t be bothered to ‘get it’. That’s a lot of women’s votes that have just been lost, whichever way you look at it. Post-modern, philosophical ideologies of feelings, and misunderstandings of the difference between sex and gender, should never, ever compromise the safeguarding of children. People who raise red flags about safeguarding deserve to be taken seriously and to have their voices heard. If we’ve we’ve learned nothing else during the past decade, surely to God we’ve learned that."
eleanorscottarchaeology.com/els-blog/2019/3/14/the-day-that-mumsnet-took-down-penny-mordaunt-mp

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/3523984-International-Women-s-Day-Q-A-with-Penny-Mordaunt-MP-Secretary-of-State-for-International-Development-NOW-CLOSED-TO-NEW-QUESTIONS

I hope someone atchived

Archived

Yes, just came here to say the 'webchat' (well it identified as a webchat) has been not only hidden but closed.

Wonder whose agenda it serves to hush it up and put it away?

Eleanor yr article made my morning-very well written.
Now that the dust has settled slightly I also agree that Pennys answers will make even more people furiously cross.....the fact she actively supports the legal fiction of a GRC is so against what people on the street think. Laws should serve & protect us, not create murky grey areas which are open to abuse by predatory males. Now that same sex marriage is legal there is no logical need for a GRC......By all means men can dress how they like & have long hair but that does not make them a woman, and they should use the facilities provided for their natal sex.

I've just had a look at the webchats and it seems only a few are closed.

John Macdonald's was too.

Great article

I hope someone atchived

Saved to Wayback.

Mary Beard's webchat is still being bumped from 2012

The webchat's still there - just closed to comments.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/3523984-International-Women-s-Day-Q-A-with-Penny-Mordaunt-MP-Secretary-of-State-for-International-Development-NOW-CLOSED-TO-NEW-QUESTIONS?pg=1

Can anyone with a law background comment on Penny Mordaunt's definition of Mother in her response to the question about Transwomen being women?

Sorry I can't cut and paste from my phone

I am adopted Mum, so she has taken my status as mother away from me. My feelings are pretty hurt, but as a Woman that probably does not matter to Penny.

This is the question:

"@TheCuriousMonkey
Q. If you are right and "transwomen are women" how do we define those people who are of the sex class that produces ova, gestates their young, lactates, menstruates etc? And if we can't define that group how do we protect their rights not to be discriminated against because of their membership of that sex class?"

"Answer:
I know what you're getting at in this question. On these matters you'll find me to be understanding and highly pragmatic. I get your concerns about this. My job is to ensure that these issues are dealt with and that everyone can go about their business and can feel supported and comfortable. And I am trying to do this swiftly.

The Equality Act exists to guard against discrimination on the grounds of a number of protected characteristics, including sex. There are many women who do not menstruate, who do not bear children, who do not produce eggs, for whatever reason. They are still covered by the protected characteristic of sex. The Gender Recognition Act allows someone to change their legal gender by altering the sex marker on their birth certificate.

Also, the legal principle in the UK is that the person who carries and gives birth to a child is the mother of that child. This is very important - for example, with surrogacy it is the woman who carries the child, rather than the woman who donates her eggs, who is listed as the mother on the child’s birth certificate.

“Mother” in legal terms therefore has a specific meaning – it means carrying and giving birth to a child."

In view of the question asked, I'm a bit disturbed by the tangent into the definition of 'mother' that Penny goes off on here. It gave me a chill. They've taken "woman" and "female" off us - are they going to go for "mother" next?

Penny can't give a definition of the word "woman" when directly asked (several times) - but is happy to tell us the legal definition of mother - causing, it seems, even more upset to women here.

I don't know what to make of that.

They've taken "woman" and "female" off us - are they going to go for "mother" next?

The term mother is being challenged both in the context of lobbying attempts to change surrogacy UK laws and with regards current case concerning a child's birth certificate.

Telegraph article by Julie Bindel: 'To say a child has no mother is to deny biological reality'
(extract)

"To choose to have a baby, which requires the use of a female body, and subsequently demand legal recognition as male is beyond ridiculous, selfish, and unnecessary. We know from swathes of research and personal testimony how important it is for children to understand their roots.

I am not suggesting that transgender people make bad parents, but there is something fundamentally wrong in legally depriving a child of a mother. Friends who are adopted, or who lost their mothers in childhood tell me it is horrendously painful to bear.

But at least many will have memories, photographs, and the knowledge of how they came into the world. To tell a child that it had no mother, and was born of a father only, is to deny every bit of biological reality.

Legally, this High Court case where a trans man is fighting to be legally recognised as the ‘father’ of a child they have given birth to is fraught with problems. If successful, it could leave one baby, for the first time in legal history, motherless. Centuries ago, women who were unmarried were often not named on birth certificates, as the baby was already promised for adoption, which meant the child would never know its true lineage." (continues)

d2ybq9unw89ve4.cloudfront.net/family/parenting/julie-bindel-say-child-has-no-mother-deny-biological-reality/

We have an Adoption Certificate for my Son, rather than a Birth Certificate, so it is clear that I am a mother by adoption.

I did do a quick Google search and I couldn't find Penny's legal definition of Mother. I am curious to know where it came from.

We’re Still Here Conference 8th September: A report from the inside by op, TheHarpySings Thu 18-Oct-18
"Hi all

First off, I’m a regular poster, have been here for years under various usernames, it I’m posting here on a name change as I don’t want this traced to me.

On 8th September there was a conference held in London a Bloomsbury Baptist Church which was called We’re Still Here, which featured a variety of panels and workshops and was attended by many prominent people in the pro-GRA reform camp.

I decided to attend to find out what was being said as it was clear that they did not want anyone to attend that wasn’t a TRA or an ally.

What follows are my notes from the day. But first a few notes on attendance:

There were probably 80-100 people in attendance. Overwhelmingly white. Mainly older transwomen. A couple of transmen. Some Mermaids delegates. Some fellow travellers/ allies. And me." (continues)

6. GETTING THE GRA WE WANT

This was a workshop with 3 experts sitting with groups and talking through activism. They were:

Helen Belcher (Lib Dems, Trans Media Watch)
James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
Alex Moore (GenderJam). Moore is from N Ireland.

James Morton gave some insight into tactics the TRAs will probably start using in England and Wales as they were successful in Scotland.

He said the TRAs need to build allies in mainstream women and children’s organisations so it looks like they care about them.

He also said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching- essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side.

James also said that in dialect with elected officials, to clarify that the trans side aren’t silencing anyone but want to clarify the misconceptions being bandied around by GC feminists.

The Scottish GRA changes will probably be put forward in the 2019-2020 parliamentary year.

Belcher has been meeting with MPs and members of the House of Lords. Most of them don’t really understand the GRA and don’t have much time to think about it thanks to the Brexit FUBAR. “Education” of law makers is needed and that’s what Belcher is doing.

Apparently the TRAs lack the infrastructure they had in the 1990s and early 2000s so they need to think carefully and coordinate.

Belcher said to re-iterate to MPs that the EA2010 is not being affected and no one is losing any rights (wtf).

Apparently in terms of political support, the Tories are split about 50/50, Labour, Lib Dem's and SNP are all onside. The Greens were NOT mentioned.

The big fear on the TRA side is that this Government won’t survive long enough to get this through- again because Brexit.

According to Alex Moore, Arlene Foster of the DUP went to a Pink News event and didn’t seem to know much about this. In NI no one really cares about the trans issues because everyone is focused on same sex marriage and abortion.

Alex then moaned about the Together for Yes campaign’s transmisogyny and that the campaign completely erased the experiences of trans and NB people who need abortions. Alex would like a legal change of gender to be free of charge and as easy as changing your name.

Helen Belcher was annoyed at GC feminists using “emotive arguments” regards rape.

HB said that the pile ons pro self-ID MPs get from the GC side if they say something supportive of the trans side are not helping the GC cause. Maria Miller told Belcher that MPs got loads of abuse in the run up to marriage equality and that abusive messages, tweets from GC feminists will only harden MPs against the GC side.

HB also said something snide about “mouthy” female Labour MPs who speak before thinking on Twitter- especially on a Friday or Saturday night after they’ve had a few drinks.

Apparently the TRAs have civil service support and that the Stonewall report and Gov survey are strong bits of evidence they have which is helping them win arguments.

They are saying there is no risk to reforming the GRA and are asking MPs “what is the risk?”

In the group I was in they also talked about how changing your gender multiple times should be allowed and shouldn’t be seen as “bad intentions”.

James Morton talked about how they can get rid of “gender” markers on things like IT systems and places where it isn’t relevant- apparently GDPR might be able to help them here.

JM’s campaigning tips were to gain trust in the local community- and to approach moderate feminists, “correct misconceptions and forgive any ignorance they may have displayed”. They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening" (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

The conference was organised by Jane Fae & Dawn Butler MP (Shadow Minister for Women & Equalities gave the keynote speech)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3390213-Dawn-Butler-Shadow-MP-for-WOMEN-has-doubled-down-on-her-hatred

Penny can't give a definition of the word "woman" when directly asked (several times) - but is happy to tell us the legal definition of mother - causing, it seems, even more upset to women here. hmm

I don't know what to make of that.

Interesting. I am a woman, ie adult human female, who does not have children. I guess I don't exist.

I should add that, oddly enough, despite not existing I don't feel the need to beat up 60 year-old women or set off smoke bombs or tell TRAs to die in a fire.

I guess I'm not womaning correctly.

So Penny Morduant is happy to throw the door open wide for all the KW's who have not been caught to have free and unfettered access to their potential victims in toilets, changing rooms, sporting associations, children centred associations such as Girl Guides, hospitals, refuges, prisons, etc., etc.

Perhaps Penny ought to reflect how David Steel's inaction and minimisation of Cyril Smith's hideous actions has come back to bite him - the same will happen to you Penny, your name is inextricably linked to this disaster waiting to happen, your minimisation of the risks, your acceptance that any risk is just something to be borne by the victims, is all documented for future reference. You will not be able to obfuscate and hide from the inevitable fall-out.

Would anyone be interested in my writing a Part II?

There are so many good points on this thread. Please do let me know if you don't wish to have your words quoted, even anonymously.

EleanorScott - can you get a piece into the national press, by any chance?

@Datun, I've had pieces / things I've done* picked up by the national media before, but tbh I get a lot of hits on my website anyway.

*eg www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-25908996

Interesting. I am a woman, ie adult human female, who does not have children. I guess I don't exist.

Who said that?

As a tongue-in-cheek comment, I extrapolated from what Mordaunt did not say: she couldn't provide a definition of a woman but she could provide one of a mother.

Would definitely be interested in part II.

@FemalePersonator I was clearly not being funny.

Ah.

I'll get my coat.