Grayson Perry irks me

[everythingisbetterafteranap]

Not sure if I'm going to articulate this well, so bear with me.

I was reading a Guardian article on a therapist who is married to the artist Grayson Perry. Reasonably interesting article with a focus on self awareness as a parent.

But it got me thinking again on why so many bright, intelligent women so readily accept men dressing up as women in such a garish pantoesque way. Where is the feminist critique of this?

Grayson Perry has his alter ego 'Claire' who looks like the silliest version of female you could find. Why is this acceptable and not challenged? Would Grayson Perry be lauded for having a black alter ego with big lips and exaggerated gestures? There is even an annual 'let's dress Claire' competition at St Martins art college. Why aren't the students there questioning this?

What is this really all about? It doesn't feel female empowering to me.

This is literally just come up on my Facebook.

Care homes are going to, amongst other things, facilitate cross dressing. Facilitate the subordination of women and men's arousal to it.

In a care home.

Fetishes like this are harmful to women. They're not a cheeky bit of art, or a bit of British eccentricity.

mobile.twitter.com/ThrupennyBit/status/1104429992329572352?s=19

Why do women assume the reason is non-sexual?
Speaking strictly for myself, it's because the reasons why I sometimes wear men's clothes are entirely non sexual for me, so the possibility that it might be otherwise had never entered my head. Men really are another country to me sometimes!

This has a couple of interesting things in it. He definitely started off thinking of it as ‘dressing as a woman’, when he was 12. He also isn’t exactly welcome in the trans community

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/oct/13/grayson-perry-im-an-unapologetic-fetishist-

Why do women assume the reason is non-sexual, why do women want to be seen as kind and understanding when there is a whole wealth of information showing the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing.

I don't want to be kind and understanding in a "pushover" sense. I just think that if you want to challenge stereotypes then you have to accept relinquishing those stereotypes. So you can't argue that a man wearing high heels, make up and a dress is dressing as a woman whilst simultaneously arguing that high heels and make up are not linked to being a woman.

What I am really not understanding is the argument for letting boys wear girls clothes and making it totally normal whilst insisting that men who wear women's clothes are fetishists. How are the people saying this going to address todays little boys tomorrow when they are men?

What I am really not understanding is the argument for letting boys wear girls clothes and making it totally normal whilst insisting that men who wear women's clothes are fetishists.

Well Grayson does refer to himself as a fetishist. I think the distinction has been made by some that the issue is with it being a sexual thrill, to pretend to be a woman.

Why? Why can’t a man have dresses made for him and wear make up without it being womanface?

GP's makeup is grotesque, it turns him into a grotesque parody of a woman. In the same way that blackface is a grotesque parody of traditionally black African features.

JessicaWakefieldSVH

That was really interesting. His reasons seem far more complex than just a way for him to get his jollies.

Why is he not just expressing different sides of himself? Like some days I get dressed up, wear make up and other days I just want to wear an old pair of jeans and a sweat shirt. There is no sexual meaning behind it (although maybe there is. Maybe Freud would see it differently, that women paint their faces to attract a mate or something?) it's just a case of dressing according to my mood. We happily accept that for women, so why not for men?

So are you saying that women who have a problem with men wearing traditionally female clothes have internalised misogyny?

err no. I'm saying that all the women falling over themselves to say how fabulous GP is for his grotesque parody of womanhood and for using women's oppression to get himself off are suffering from the same 'eat me last' internalised misogyny as any trans applauding liberal feminist.

What I am really not understanding is the argument for letting boys wear girls clothes and making it totally normal whilst insisting that men who wear women's clothes are fetishists

nah, come on. It's the difference between those poor little boys being paraded around in drag and buying sparkly unicorn t-shirts from the girls section at H&M for your son because that's what he likes.

GP's makeup is grotesque, it turns him into a grotesque parody of a woman.

So the latest fashions for women to have lip fillers (trout pout) and tattooed eyebrows (that look not dissimilar to how GP does his, in that they are higher and more noticeable) is that also a parody?

Women that have breast and buttock implants? Is that a fetish or a parody?

I'm saying that all the women falling over themselves to say how fabulous GP is for his grotesque parody of womanhood and for using women's oppression to get himself off are suffering from the same 'eat me last' internalised misogyny as any trans applauding liberal feminist.

That’s a pretty twisted and unfair analysis of the conversation taking place here.

GP's makeup is grotesque, it turns him into a grotesque parody of a woman. In the same way that blackface is a grotesque parody of traditionally black African features.

As someone said the other day, it’s a little different in that the former parodies something that women apply, not something we are.

Fake breasts and whatnot is more like the latter.

I can’t decide whether that’s just splitting hairs though; end of the day, you make an ‘other’ to carry a load of ideas for you.

nah, come on. It's the difference between those poor little boys being paraded around in drag and buying sparkly unicorn t-shirts from the girls section at H&M for your son because that's what he likes.

But I have seen, many times, when anyone talks about a young boy expressing that he wants to be a girl, posters telling the mum to let him wear dresses, to wear dresses and skirts to school, to tell him that, as a boy, he can wear and be and do anything that a girl can, but that he can't change sex. They're not saying "oh buy him a unicorn top from H and M". So those little boys will grow into men, possibly having grown up wearing dresses, as advocated by people on here. But the as a man what happens? Suddenly they can't wear what they want because then that is a fetish?

So those little boys will grow into men, possibly having grown up wearing dresses

In our highly gendered society they'd be bloody lucky to get to manhood just wearing dresses because that's what they like, context free. But let's say they do.

great. they won't wear a stuffed bra, because they're just 'getting dressed'. they won't pop a boner because they're being topped by the whole of western civilization.

crack on

If we did allow boys and girls free choice in a non-sexist culture I strongly suspect there wouldn’t be a cross dressing fetish to have. It only exists because we don’t.

Drag/transvestism isn't just wearing dresses. It's an over the top parody of stereotypically feminine presentation. Children in school wearing a school uniform skirt aren't the same.

That’s a pretty twisted and unfair analysis of the conversation taking place here.

sorry you feel that way. that's honestly what it looks like from here though

how anyone can see a man who openly admits that he is sexually aroused by 'dressing as a woman' because there is something inherently submissive about it and be completely cool with it is pretty mystifying to me. but if you're fine with it, knock yourself out kid.

Drag/transvestism isn't just wearing dresses. It's an over the top parody of stereotypically feminine presentation. Children in school wearing a school uniform skirt aren't the same.

It really shouldn't need saying.

yep, those are boys in skirts. no parody, they're just wearing clothes.

I wonder if those people on here defending Perry will be there to explain to the female careworkers earning on or just above minimum wage why they are being obliged, as part of their contract of employment, to engage in the sexual fetishes of their residents? These are the fetishes sanitised by Perry and his defenders. These women who often struggle to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads in these crazy times are to all intents and purposes being threatened with being forced into a form of prostitution.

how anyone can see a man who openly admits that he is sexually aroused by 'dressing as a woman' because there is something inherently submissive about it and be completely cool with it is pretty mystifying to me. but if you're fine with it, knock yourself out kid.

I’m having a long conversation to consider the different angles and I’m reading as a I go about how Graysons attitudes have changed from when he started, as a troubled 12 year old. He no longer says he’s dressing as a woman.

I’m not a kid, I’m in my 40’s. Please don’t patronise me.

These women who often struggle to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads in these crazy times are to all intents and purposes being threatened with being forced into a form of prostitution.
Which women? Who is being threatened with being forced into prostitution?

how anyone can see a man who openly admits that he is sexually aroused by 'dressing as a woman' because there is something inherently submissive about it

I don't see that as being an insult to femininity though, I see it as a protest against masculinity. That it's rejecting having to act and dress in a masculine way.

If I choose to wear jeans and trainers I'm not doing it as any sort of comment on being a man, I'm doing it because I want to be comfortable and can't be fussed with the faff of being dressed up of wearing make up.

I see the argument about men making a statement rather than just wearing clothes. I just don't think society is in a place where a man could just wear a dress though in the way that women can wear trousers. It seems like it has to be the big gesture because in some way that is understood.

sorry, figures of speech not allowed. gotcha

I obviously believed I was speaking to a child, that's really clear from my post

Many posters have commended Grayson Perry for his honesty about fetishistic crossdressing (transvestism). I do too. The obfuscation around transvestism has enabled the surge of the self-ID brigade. Let's call a fetish a fetish. Stonewall includes 'crossdressers' in its trans umbrella. I doubt they mean men who like wearing a skirt to keep cool!

GP has said he didn't feel it was appropriate to discuss his transvestism with his daughter when she was younger. Why is that?

Does he still find it sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.”

I ask how he broached his transvestism with his daughter, Flo, now 22. It was obvious from a young age, he says, because she’d see him in his frocks. Did he go into details about what it meant to him? No, he didn’t think it was appropriate. “When she was very young, we used to say, ‘Oh, Daddy’s dressing up to go to a party’, which was pretty true most of the time. I never sat her down and talked about my sexuality. Too much information!”
www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv