Grayson Perry irks me

[everythingisbetterafteranap]

Not sure if I'm going to articulate this well, so bear with me.

I was reading a Guardian article on a therapist who is married to the artist Grayson Perry. Reasonably interesting article with a focus on self awareness as a parent.

But it got me thinking again on why so many bright, intelligent women so readily accept men dressing up as women in such a garish pantoesque way. Where is the feminist critique of this?

Grayson Perry has his alter ego 'Claire' who looks like the silliest version of female you could find. Why is this acceptable and not challenged? Would Grayson Perry be lauded for having a black alter ego with big lips and exaggerated gestures? There is even an annual 'let's dress Claire' competition at St Martins art college. Why aren't the students there questioning this?

What is this really all about? It doesn't feel female empowering to me.

If some men do it in order to get a reaction why give them the reaction that they want? Surely that takes the power back rather than being oppressed?

I’d want to read and listen to him more to fully understand, but in the link I posted Grayson says when he was younger the acceptable types of cross dresser, or the idea of what or who they were, was either comedy or sex obsessed crazy person. He took on the persona of Claire because he enjoyed the thrill and thought, that’s the one I choose. He got bored as it became less shocking etc and now says Claire doesn’t exist and he’s just a man in a dress looking ridiculous. I may have not worded that well! Hell cystitis is driving me crazy!

Exactly datun

Men in my country wear kilts. Men in other countries wear robes and skirts

They are not fetishing women

essentially, if you look at it as 'dressing as a woman', then you are fetishising the way women look

Women do not fetishise men by wearing their clothes.

So women who wear men's clothes ( and I am talking about actual.men's clothes rather than trousers made for women) do it for what reason? What statement is being made there? Or women who dress to look like men - who wear a tux for example rather than traditional evening dresses, or who go for a very butch look - what is their motivation for doing that?

I just think that by continuing to label certain clothes or looks as being female you perpetuate stereotypes. If you want to break down stereotypes then you have to relinquish claim to those stereotypes.

essentially, if you look at it as 'dressing as a woman', then you are fetishising the way women look

But in this discussion it is potentially women looking at it as "dressing as a woman" rather than the man who is wearing the clothes, who might very well see himself as a man wearing clothes. Isn't that us fetishising the way women look then?

Women who wear mens clothes do it for a variety of reasons, I imagine. None of them to do with a fetish.

essentially, if you look at it as 'dressing as a woman', then you are fetishising the way women look

I agree. GP says he is not dressing as a woman, but is a man in a dress- made for him not purchased in women’s sections.

no-one ever said women don't have internalised misogyny Weetabixandshreddies

GP has said that he was initially 'dressing as a woman'

I still feel that the way he dresses is offensive womanface, regardless of what he now says is his motivation

Women who wear mens clothes do it for a variety of reasons, I imagine. None of them to do with a fetish.

Well what are the reasons then? It's clearly making a statement so what is it?

I still feel that the way he dresses is offensive womanface, regardless of what he now says is his motivation Why? Why can’t a man have dresses made for him and wear make up without it being womanface?

I think the thing is not many men just casually sling on a dress. Some do, and fine. But mainly not, and women who sling on a shirt and jeans don't tend to glue on a beard, or something that is obviously meant to be 'manly'. That in itself doesn't mean it has to be wrong, but it is different.
The fact that men often refer to themselves as cross-dressers or transvestites suggests they see it differently too.
I think I'm talking myself out of my own naivety here. I still think clothes should be for anyone, but not sure it would affect the need to imitate/parody or whatever women in some way.

no-one ever said women don't have internalised misogyny Weetabixandshreddies

So are you saying that women who have a problem with men wearing traditionally female clothes have internalised misogyny?

Well what are the reasons then? It's clearly making a statement so what is it?

Are you asking me? I have no idea! You'd have to ask them.

By which I mean, I don't care

I think my disquiet about all of this is that if we take issue with a man "dressing as a woman" then we have to suppose that a woman dresses in a certain way. That creates the difficulty for me because it is saying that being a woman has "a look".

We don't say that a man wearing jeans and t shirt is dressing as a woman do we, yet most women do wear jeans and a t shirt. A lit of men wear make up and yet that isn't such a big deal anymore. This argument is centering on quite a specific look that is being determined as female. But why? Why are we insisting on clinging onto that stereotype of determining a certain style as being only for women?

Datun

So you don't know and don't care why some women make a definite decision to dress in a certain way but you care very much, and apply judgements, to a man dressing in a certain way?

Ok.

So you don't know and don't care why some women make a definite decision to dress in a certain way but you care very much, and apply judgements, to a man dressing in a certain way?

Correct. One interests me, the other doesn't.

Well what are the reasons then? It's clearly making a statement so what is it?
OK I wear men's clothes sometimes, as do lots of women. Nothing outlandish but I'm wearing a men's jumper at the moment and when I go out, I may wear a men's tweed jacket.

My reasons? Um... I like them. I like the oversized fit. The quality's a lot better than it is for women's clothing at the same price. And yeah I have noticed that the way I walk and stand is different which I find interesting. But I have never once got any kind of sexual thrill out of it. Whether that's true of all women, I don't know but this, for me, is a the big difference. In my naivity I had never even considered before discovering FWR that men who wear women's clothes might have any other motive other than just liking them. It's been an eye opener to be sure.

Floisme

That's really interesting how you talk about the clothes. They aren't just articles of clothing but are having an effect on how you feel.

I don't find it inconceivable that some men might well have similar feelings around wearing traditionally female clothing.

I think Datuns point is that a lot of cross dressers and the whole idea of being a ‘cross dresser’ is about parodying women, and some use it as a sexual fetish.
Then there is the other points about gender stereotypes and how do men challenge them without humiliating or denigrating women.
There are fair points on both sides and I don’t think there’s a clear cut answer or position.
Grayson Perry raises interesting issues because I think he originally was the stereotype of a cross dresser, or a fetishist. I believe it’s possible that it is now different for him.

The only time I can remember wearing actual men's clothing was during pregnancy when for a while the waist-hip ratio on a pair of DHs jeans fit me. I had to roll the bottom up a couple of times.

Perry Grayson at the palace was dressing quite specifically as a transvestite.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-25878193/grayson-perry-dresses-down-for-palace-date

Yeah that's possible, Weetabix. But Perry has openly admitted his motivation is sexual. Plus he's not just been pleasuring himself at home with other consenting adults - it seems that women have basically been helping him masturbate without even knowing it. That's a big difference for me and I'm not sure yet what I'll do with that knowledge.

it seems that women have basically been helping him masturbate without even knowing it.

Over their own oppression.

Grayson Perry raises interesting issues because I think he originally was the stereotype of a cross dresser, or a fetishist. I believe it’s possible that it is now different for him.

I agree. I do also wonder whether some of it is also performance art and a way of challenging thoughts and conceptions? I sort of view him as you would a painting - people take different things from paintings don't they? They interpret the same piece of art in different ways and that is how I feel when I look at him. I find that it challenges me to think about why I feel in a certain way about his appearance. So why he does it or what he gets from it is separate to how I feel about it. Does that make any sense?

It is a fetish for a lot of crossdressers, some are too ashamed to admit it, others own it.

Here is a redditt community highlighting how they revel in the crossdressers fetish.

Reddit It's A Fetish

The most obvious reason men crossdress, wear leather, wear bondage gear, are adult babies or furries is sexual. The major reason IS sexual, a minority would do it for artistic or anarcic reason, but MOST don't.

Why do women assume the reason is non-sexual, why do women want to be seen as kind and understanding when there is a whole wealth of information showing the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing. (FYI I don't care about any bodies kink as it's none of my business, just wish that they would respect boundaries and be a bit private or with groups of like minded people).