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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paula Radcliffe will be on the Today programme at 7.30

124 replies

EweSurname · 05/03/2019 07:24

BBC Radio 4 Today
@BBCr4today
Today: Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge (0710) questions whether she was misled by Jeremy Corbyn, something his office strongly denies; Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt on the Yemen conflict (0810); and marathon great Paula Radcliffe on transgender athletics (0730) #r4Today

OP posts:
MillytantForceit · 05/03/2019 13:52

...Andreas

OlennasWimple · 05/03/2019 14:37

Marathon record times....

Men's: 2:01:39 (set in 2018 by Eliud Kipchoge)

Women's: 2:15:25 (Paula Radcliffe, 2003) AND 2:17:01 (Mary Keitany, 2017) - interesting that the IAAF recognise records set during a mixed race and women's only races Hmm

The men's marathon record was 2:15:17 back in 1958 (Sergei Popov) and there are 27 formally recorded times faster than that since (events such as the Boston Marathon dont' count for official IAAF records, because of the course)

The best time recorded by an U20 man is 2:04:32 (Tsegaye Mekonnen, who was 18 years 223 days in 2014), for an U20 woman it's 2:20:59 (Shure Demise, who was 19 years2 days old in 2015)

For U18, the records are 2:11:43 (Li He, 17 years 225 days in 2001) and 2:25:15 (Sun Weiwei, 16 years 279 days in 2002)

Looking at the other end, it's only when men get to 45+ that the record times for the marathon start to get back to Paula's record (or slower)

But this is all obviously purely coincidence, right?

EweSurname · 05/03/2019 14:51

Thanks donkeyskin! I googled "moaning minnies" and "bitter beryls" and then gave up trying to find it Grin

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 05/03/2019 14:56

OlennasWimple

Thanks for that on the marathon times, really interesting reading.
I have a link here comparing British track cycle racing records, and once again the difference in times, well it is absolutely coincidental Grin
Nothing to do with biology/physiology.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_records_in_track_cycling

DonkeySkin · 05/03/2019 16:45

Given the way things are I don't think we should expect current athletes to speak up

It would be hugely risky for an individual athlete to speak out, but I hope some will consider collective action, such as demanding the authorities review the rules, or even boycotting events in which male athletes are competing.

That actually happened in NZ last year, when a male downhill cyclist who had been competing without distinction in the men's competition was allowed to switch to the women's with 3 weeks' notice. Apparently, most of the female competitors refused to take part in the race. I say 'apparently', because the media deliberately misrepresented what happened, calling it 'confusion' rather than a boycott and then focused on lionising the stunning and brave translady (who won, of course). The only news we got of the boycott was a coy line buried in an article about said STABTL ('It was a small field for the elite women's championship race, with just five starting riders').

Still, given the way the conversation has shifted recently thanks to Martina's intervention, I think a future boycott would have more chance of getting coverage and with collective action it would be harder for the media to demonise any individual or for sponsors to abandon all of them.

The other alternative is for coaches to lobby behind the scenes. Of course that's tricky because of the competitive nature of sport - you just end up with the coaches of the team or country which features the SABTL lobbying hard in the other direction. That's what happened with Laurel Hubbard: Australian coaches made a concerted effort to raise the unfairness of Hubbard competing against females with Commonwealth Games officials, while the NZ coaches of course argued that Hubbard's inclusion was totally fair, nothing to see here folks.

Ultimately you would hope (although maybe this is too optimistic) that coaches and athletics officials would realise that whatever the short-term advantages of having a Hubbard or a Mouncey on the team, long term their presence can only be detrimental to the sport as a whole, because fewer and fewer girls and women are going to bother with training for and competing in events where they know they will be at a massive disadvantage.

Antibles · 05/03/2019 17:33

Thank you Paula. Stars, all the athletes speaking out now. Star

trendingorange · 05/03/2019 18:00

If the female athletes don't speak up women's sport is over.
I don't understand why judges, coaches aren't speaking up at the unfairness....but it's still a mans world and they don't give a shit as it only disadvantages women.

rocketromano · 05/03/2019 22:09

Well done Paula on having the guts to speak out. I wish more men would speak in support of this but the truth is the majority of men don’t get a shit about women’s sport

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 05/03/2019 22:18

I was looking at an article on Paula speaking out that's on the independents Facebook page. It seems like the TRA central. They must have put out a call to action on it, all other newspaper comments sections have been "men in women's sport. Nah"

nauticant · 05/03/2019 22:33

I'm not sure how it happened but the Independent went pretty strange a few years ago and its readership went utterly bonkers. Their comments sections make those of the Telegraph and the Spectator look like rational debating societies.

AyeRobot · 05/03/2019 22:52

I said this on the prison wing thread, but it bears repeating here - why has no one asked "what about the women?" within the ruling bodies that are allowing this? There are people within sport specifically tasked, and paid, to represent women and not one of them have pushed that question. Because if they had, we wouldn't be here. Because it is so fucking obvious.

As I said on the other thread, I am a hugely cynical person. But even I am flabbergasted at the cowardice being shown. Or the blatant disregard of women. Or both.

And no. Not wanting to be a man does not make you a woman. And no. Not being able to compete in women's events does not mean you are excluded from sport. You can still compete in your sex class. And if the rules don't allow you to do that, well tough. Women decided it wasn't working for them, so get your campaigning boots back on.

boatyardblues · 05/03/2019 23:19

I'm not sure how it happened but the Independent went pretty strange a few years ago and its readership went utterly bonkers.

Doesn’t it have a Russian owner now? Are the comnents actually genuine or is it populated by paid trolls and stirrers?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/03/2019 08:32

I am cross with myself as thought I was going on to talk about a different issue. Wait! They conned her into that interview? No wonder she was a bit flustered... they bloody lied to her!

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 06/03/2019 09:01

I seemed to have missed a bit on R4 this morning - I heard some person saying that they lost muscle strength bla bla after taking pills to trans m2f. It was just a clip for a longer piece but I didn’t hear it. Anyone listen I f this morning before 7am?

nauticant · 06/03/2019 09:18

Joanna Harper was on at about quarter past 7:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3525572-Joanna-Harper-on-R4-Today-Prog

youllhavehadyourtea · 06/03/2019 13:48

Doesn’t it have a Russian owner now? Are the comnents actually genuine or is it populated by paid trolls and stirrers?

Absolutely this.

It's where the Russian trolls are given free rein to cut their teeth.

EcclesThePeacock · 06/03/2019 17:44

^ I am cross with myself as thought I was going on to talk about a different issue. Wait! They conned her into that interview? No wonder she was a bit flustered... they bloody lied to her!^

The thing I found interesting about that was the marked difference in how Radcliffe responded to an interview being not quite what she expected, vs RM whining about being 'blindsided' in an interview which evidently RM hadn't managed to dictate the terms of.

MillytantForceit · 06/03/2019 19:08

Paula Radcliffe has gathered her thoughts and come up with something characteristically calm and reasonable:

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/47467522

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 06/03/2019 19:34

I wish they’d use another photo to illustrate male bodied persons on female sport - one where they are standing side by side. The difference in height, weight and muscles in some photos are pretty gobsmacking.

OrchidInTheSun · 06/03/2019 19:49

Like this one? goo.gl/images/4pQtVt

Or this maybe goo.gl/images/D41CgM

Or even this? goo.gl/images/RTyAFu

I don't think you even need to show a woman in comparison to demonstrate how huge a 6ft 5 person professional sports person who was born male typically is

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 06/03/2019 21:05

Ouch!
Woah!
Man hands!

Well a picture does say a thousand words.

ComputerSaysMo · 06/03/2019 21:15

Oh course the Beeb is going to use a photo of RM in which the top 3 finishers are bending over towards the camera - they don’t want casual readers to see the size and torso shape difference immediately, as they would if they were standing.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 06/03/2019 21:20

Maybe that recent shot of the woman’s cycling team standing in a V formation with a male bodied personage at the pointy bit would be better. You get a good view of the legs/pelvis and can see the body shape/mass perfectly.

LizzieSiddal · 06/03/2019 21:42

The Paula Radcliffe interview with BBC Sport, posted by Milly, is spot on.

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